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tv   Inside Story 2020 Ep 20  Al Jazeera  January 21, 2020 2:32pm-3:02pm +03

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to impeach the old but at least let's have a process that is credible that is legitimate so that america can be proud of its laws rather than let this thing pass in the dark within 2345 days and then not be proud of this very legal process that america invented to put its leaders on the scrutiny. it will be tracing all of this with a huge amount of scrutiny in the coming days as your. political analyst thank you for joining me here today in the studio well you can find much more on our web site as well to follow all of these big stories but if davos and the impeachment trial the address for that is al jazeera dot com well the news will continue here on al-jazeera off the inside story so do stay with us.
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world leaders meeting in berlin agree to stop sending weapons to libya and for new talks and the civil war but on the ground the fighting goes on so will the many foreign countries feeding the conflict back off and who has the power to stop libya's slide further into crisis this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program i'm dennis now libya's civil war is now in its 6th year a host of countries is involved with turkey russia and france just to name
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a 3 providing support to the 2 sides vying for power the u.s. backed government of fire. and the wall after now on sunday at a summit in berlin world leaders agreed to respect the u.n. arms embargo and work towards a permanent ceasefire so d'argent have to both attended the talks but they didn't even sit in the same room however german chancellor angela merkel believes the meeting helped lay the groundwork for another meeting in geneva later this month. and 40 soon we feel we need to work further on the process to find a political solution and up hold the ceasefire today's conflict in libya has become a proxy war we hope to change the situation and finally return the libyan people's right to live together in peace this return to the political process is essential. weirds all the parties to engage in a leave you no longer live in
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a dialogue and the auspices of united nations paving the way for a political solution to the crisis well libya's warring sides are backed by different countries as you've already heard some of which provide military hardware despite a un arms embargo the un recognized government of national accord or the g.n.a.t. led by prime minister fires al surat has a support of italy cata and turkey its base in the capital tripoli in the west of the country in the east into brooke there's a rival administration which back after he's supported by egypt the united arab emirates and france russian private security forces are also reportedly fighting alongside half barrels forces. all right let's introduce our guests now in tripoli the libyan capital we have 2 weezer a former libyan minister of planning in florence initially we have version the columbia professor at the middle east directions program in the european university
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institute and in berlin in germany galloped ally a visiting scholar at the university of oxford welcome to you all that is or can i come to you 1st so gay lover of the russian foreign minister has described the berlin conference as a small step forward but how on earth can you consider that a success when there is fighting continuing on the ground and libya's oil production the means of its support has been drastically reduced to one that is very true i think in bolivia just made some wishes for libyans some good wishes for libya they are not really what employers in the mechanisms that will hold the future says fire or when the oil fields so are really remain with the same situation actually you are living with the more school or whatever has been done
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and more school but the balloon has north so far on the ground people are still out of all. you know the disability people are so not able to reaching to reach their home those who try and they were killed immediately we still see violations in the ceasefire. we have lists fighting but in the reality we cannot touch anything on the ground as far as bullying is concerned all right and then coming to you gallop in berlin the early in count friends that happened on sunday seem to place an awful lot of emphasis on the foreign intervention in the situation in libya and a centerpiece if you like of the final communique was respect and the holding of the existing u.n. arms embargo do you think that turkey for instance do you think that russia will abide by this and start to withdraw or pull back on their support for the opposing sides. well i don't think that it will be the case we might see like some laws in
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terms of support the military support to the warring sides but i think this will be on the as more interruption not like you will and or the holding of the military support to the war inside the trouble is through the berlin and the international processes with trade the board size the u.n. recognize the government in tripoli but also the war as having equal legitimacy and as i move to kuwait i think that's the premises of which is completely fallacious in the end on the one hand you have the your reckon his government yes yes absolutely got abandoned and the point you're making but on but also you have to recognize do you not that half the controls around 2 thirds of the libyan territory he has to be taken seriously he is part of the any future equation is he not know absolutely he has to be taken seriously but i think this international process
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should not turn into the legitimization of or in that because that if this is the case then you are sending a message to everyone if you can do the things the arms to the militias do it then the international process will turn what cream you create in the ground into illegitimate process so one of the trouble that i see in things like berlin process that the own willingness to call the spot a spot in there and one of the reason there is advancing is because the support of his getting from the countries like egypt your way and friends and i think the burden of process and then a similar young process should name you know should open a call on this countries to not to provide support what everyone call what iran framed as a war road so in this regard the legitimacy of the u.n. legitimacy is what is at stake right ok let's get a vision in our in florence version a neither of our. gesine particularly optimistic that this berlin conference is
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going to yield anything much anything positive at least how do does the situation. change what needs to happen in all the for there to be. a credible ceasefire for instance. well you just mentioned one of the most important points and there has been no major breakthrough during the conference contrary to maybe some hopes has been no consolidation or formalisation of the cease fire agreement or is the truce that had been pushed for by a russia on the one hand and turkey last week so here i mean everything looks like a kind of gentlemen's agreement in which a much will depend on the actual goodwill of the various international players involved in the conflict but also on the urine security council it seems quite obvious that. the conclusion of the cease fire will depend on some follow up negotiations that should stop shortly we've heard
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a miracle say yesterday that the formation of followup committee has had been agreed upon so the idea now is that we take the discussions one step further and try to dig into the details of some of the necessary details that need to be agreed upon especially on the security sector reform the economy and the biblical process but it means that none of the main actors have really given up so far or right if they're coming back to you in tripoli i mean you're living with the situation on a daily basis without a change in terms of foreign intervention is it a tool possible that a ceasefire can be established and up held in libya today. no no not at all and. you know this ceasefire was not even possible and i think it was really excellent work by turkey and russia who really
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you know. succeeded in making this is fire allies we don't really expect let's let me interrupt there let me interrupt there is a because of course after himself didn't sign the cease fire at the meeting in moscow he walked out and a half so how much influence really does russia have on the process in libya what it turned our there they don't have really full. full influence but we have to understand that have to or is not in his own you know he's not in his own control one half that is supported by other. you know countries like him or not and they dictate what have to are supposed to do and they were with him and more school full did not let him sign but to some extent the ceasefire is holding with some violations. but it is they've all right and then i would like to just
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explain place i still would like to explain one thing. it is not fair to talk about the 2 size as equal size as far as this war and i have to wish this war on tripoli. before that we were going to a political solution in in of adamus but he violated this and he attacked at the beginning. the government of the called never bought any weapons well was never built or he had to really fight for 40 but he saw they are in the defense situation and as soon as they were asked to stop the war they are ready to stop but this war is one sided war all right and one of the ones who are to war to stop the war and withdraw nobody will or will follow him or i this is a point that gallup made a bit earlier and that there is in your view there is a kind of equivalence being given to both sides and yet you consider half as is the
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aggressor in all of this but tell me how do you think western european countries now should be responding to the crisis because it seems as though they turned their backs on libya for the best part of a year but all of a sudden it seems as though western europe is coming back in force and trying to make a difference. well i think well i think the 1st and foremost the western european countries should basically form a position a unified position because within the context of libya what we see is a rivalry between italy and france taking place as well to our or opposition side and this is the aggravating the crisis these on the they put in the crisis so 1st and foremost is a western european powers are going to form a policy position because they are in berlin process all the e.u. institution was at the head of the e.u. commission the head of the european council the e.u.'s chief friend of foreign representative and all the major european west european countries was that what the
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trouble is that didn't seem so much consensus among them when it comes to when it comes to libya and particularly the friends seems to be like you know playing a role in tendons with intending with. egypt and u.a.e. that is not very fruitful and that is not very of contributing into the stability of the libya in this regard i think like you know part to get the german and italy should assert as much as possible and particle sporter un process and support the legitimacy so in this regard we once again so we should not indulge the maximalist position of after because in there and he was the one that's not the effort in in moscow for a ceasefire and he is right now the one that is that you know indulging in stubbornness and maximal ism so in this got it should not be just a plea for the sides to abide by the ceasefire but actually there should be a clear mechanism of pressure if any of the science seems to be low value right ok
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listen until we put like you know clear reference points for the violator i don't think that we are going to come up with any form of a sustainable cease fire like you know the particular the or hotter will continue with its maximalist position all right ok. in one way or another gallup virginie coming to you now is it true to say is it a fair statement to say that europe pretty much views the problem the crisis of libya through the prism of irregular migration obviously thousands and thousands of whom have either reached italy or died in the mediterranean they're seeing the the problem in libya through that lens and obviously the way the production of oil affects the energy markets i mean is that fair to say as regards to the european view of libya. well i'm not so sure it's only this for sure the migration
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sarette as it is presented as long constituted a major issue for the european union and in particular for some countries within their opinion like for instance italy for other countries within the e.u. the focus has been much more on security issues if you think of france for instance their interest in the focus that they had on security issue counterterrorism specially focusing on the south of libya this is also one of the issues that they've used as non-government to support and provide military support to have to force isn't the best actually though over the past weeks the fact that europe's marginalization and weakening on the diplomatic scene has come clearly to the fore and the fact that russia and turkey had started to play a much more important role positioning themselves as mediators in the conflict after being present militarily as all be asleep constituted a major wake up call for europe and clearly you see also that from the part of
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european diplomacy for france to mr well they have started to become much more active of the past weeks because clearly for europe having 2 major powers russia and turkey taking the lead in 1st. i mean supporting military developments on the ground in a country which is so close to each really into the borders of you is problematic also because by doing so they've positioned themselves as key players capable of also framing not only a ceasefire possibly and how to implement a cease fire but also the rules of the game for political agreements who probably we're not there and they're not so influential so far but i think the e.u.'s clearly perceived russia enter key is becoming more influence as a kind of threat and something that they needed to react to right ok coming back to you he said now let's let's have a live. it'll look at the political process where we had the u.n.
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secretary general talking about a return to the un led political process that is owned by libyans but also i'm drawn to a quote by gas and salamat calls the u.n. special envoy he said recently that libya is a vast country with strong local identities that's the population there heavily armed and there's a weak government infrastructure gotten salamis assessment of the situation is that it's a difficult country for one group to control to agree with that do you think that one leader can lead a united libya one of course 11 leader can lead the united libya and we will continue to think of that their fees been there for 42 years but eventually that system was collapsed i think they have the you will be in our midst really dealing with libya in 2011 they have helped libya to overcome
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a very severe dictatorship and the libyan will have be really to go to a new democracy they went to elections very successfully looks in in. in july 2012 they brought used them and a government but the intervention of the external forces the enemies of democracy you know those people who think that democracy is dangerous for them they have into the field and they have spoilt the process and believe me believe me despite the number of weapons into the body the problem is not from the weapons and it is not from the people as soon as the external forces withdraw their hands from libya libya will settle down and would become very stable country because we are naturally stable. so there will be should really they ignore the problem correctly
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and they should not install a new dictator in libya thinking that this will help them stop the immigration problem right the secure the security or i also libyan have a story and so i didn't sorry to interrupt you there is a let's go to gallup in berlin and gallup if we've got 2 parties led by surat on the one hand and hafter on the other and they don't even want to sit in the same room how on earth can you expect there to be any kind of political process the u.n. maybe being overoptimistic by suggesting that within the next week or so to also take place in geneva. well i think 2 things one of the situation is not very promising as we have this cause but one thing is for once again in china powers do have a means of leverage if they're war that if they're willing to apply to them because thus far the international powers did not use their leverage. very much they were
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dictated by the strain on the ground and the situation on a grant was dictated by the warring sides and their. backers so in this got a what we are going to end be libya house 2 neighbors one of them is tunisia one of them is egypt and i think in this regard right now what is at stake in libya is the contest also to model one of them the model of egypt which effectively means in the form of the haves are having and live in libyan cissie in trouble you see poorly and i think this will be a terrible news for the europe having another c.c. in its near abroad and the 2nd one is tunisia where it was a messy process it in what like many compromises many concessions many many you know debate at the public sphere but still it is the whole italy working and then the e.u. through sport is so in this regard the question should not be whether it is hostile or all of. us it is what mother should prevail in libya are we going to once again
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abandon the libya to another military dictatorship on the shore to europe or are we going to the sport of transition no matter it's going to be. quite congress on one so in this guy i think like the principles that we have to 1st set on is not by can or a person or b. person but what kind what form will to govern suit for a veil on the doorstep or a europe and in this about unfortunately despite the heavy your pimp a presence in berlin that was more european position that would have supported such a model that could be right for you and good for the libyans of same mission e is is gallup right it's a right when he. he says that this is basically about 2 opposing ideas 2 opposing models of government what is in your opinion the dividing line if you like between those who support haftar and those who support the un recognized jna in tripoli what is the dividing line. well i think it's true to suck to
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a large extent there are 2 competing visions for governments that have been fighting themselves over the past months and years but i think maybe more interestingly what is at stake now and i think what is to some extent also wearing in the conclusions of the bilin conference yesterday is that when the return to the political process is mentioned it seems like the way it's is and the vision looks like a kind of return to the libyan political agreement of 2015 and not so much a return also to the which meant to some extent a kind of power sharing agreement between the major political and security actors and not so much a return or at least. taking into account also her son salaam is big idea of the national conference was main aim and i think it's very important was to try and i divert the political at least balance the influence of these warlords from both
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camps and try to make those actors that have actual influential influence within society to low them to play a political role to diet to try and balance this influence of the warlords and make sure that the power sharing agreement would not only reward their behavior their position of power but try and build a political scene which would be less organized around these 2 blocks that are opposing themselves in a very ideological way and i think unfortunately it might be that the priority is go towards spyware sharing agreement and much less towards trying to build a consensus among political forces so it means much more focus on those warlords that have dominated the scene for the past months and unfortunately ok it is coming back to you in tripoli giving you the last word is that how you see it do you see that the libyan people are condemned if you like to endure still more conflict
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until such time as talks in geneva get underway with a real chance if you like of delivering some kind of national program for the country. ok the libyan of people are just coming out of a very you know of severe as i said they describe it as a severe dictatorship they were isolated they did they have no experience with democracy and. they never exercised through economy did bindon annoying the hand of state so that we expect the western world to help us achieve our democracy actually they need they want to have a democracy and they prove that in the beginning in. july 7th 2012 now they have been led to think that they what are what we're what are you know the only what we're the only thing they need is beasts because they deprived of the
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right to exercise their democracy now i think the the free world should stand with the libyans to build their civil state and their own democracy and this of the only way that you can find a proper partner to deal with all right and this should really stop there gratian of have to who is trying to install a family state. you know. i have a big i have to jump in there unfortunately we're out of time thank you so much is a. live from tripoli virginie colombia talking to us from florence and talking to us from berlin thank you very much indeed for an interesting conversation thank you as ever for watching the program you can see it again and the time you like by going to the website outages there dot com if you want more discussion there's always a facebook page facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story and there's always a twitter sphere handlers at a.j. inside story and i'm at this for me in the whole team here in doha it's by for now
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. a searching investigation into gun culture in the philippines. and the new rules that were put in place to control it and this country is not yet right. if you restrict the rights of natives got orders you're not solving the problem of criminality of the piece because these are not the people who are committing the crime. who are your customers
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a lot of people but has the violence actually got worse rewind stray bullets on al-jazeera. when the news breaks and the moment today the current government has lost trust to people they can't do anything because the protestors are against it when people to be nice like what we represent the law for sure for opponents of rex it's drawing the conservatives al-jazeera has teams on the ground it now hopes that meeting in paris will push politicians to create a competent and credible government to bring the room between documentaries and nightly on air and online in a 2 part series. observes the lives of 2 children. over 20 years. may or insights into circumstances that shaped lives. in a rapidly changing world. 20 years of mean continues with good morning group
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on how to 0. grads in doha the top stories on al-jazeera the u.s. president donald trump has delivered an upbeat headline address at the world economic forum in switzerland that says the final details of his impeachment trial is set to be hammered out on the other side of the atlantic trump says he's in davos despite the proceedings in order to encourage your investment in the u.s. he also said america is experiencing an economic boom like never before and he dismissed prophecies of doom as concerns over climate change other shadow the gathering of political and business elites this is not a time for pessimism this is
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a time for. optimism fear and doubt is not a good thought process because this is a time for tremendous hope and joy an optimism in action but to embrace the possibilities of tomorrow we must reject the perennial prophets of doom and their predictions of the apocalypse now as world leaders meet in davos protesters outside have been calling on them to do more to tackle climate change hundreds of activists mots for 3 days across parts of them to the small town i say those attending the meeting are largely responsible for the climate crisis activists group of whom bird has told the youth panel of davos that despite all the talk about global warming not much is being done to tackle. the climate and environment is is a hot topic right now and not saying see young people pushing that of course if you see it from another perspective all pretty much nothing has been done since the global.


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