tv Dateline London BBC News July 25, 2020 11:30am-12:00pm BST
johnson's first year in boris johnson's first year in downing street. our guests from the economist, and we are having a technical problem, we are hoping for a technical commentator as well. in the studio we have the bbc chief international correspondent. fingers crossed we can get thomas. last week's european summit on a post covid economic rescue package was a cliffhanger even by eu standards. germany and france are urged exceptional measures. the so—called frugal four to be exceptional to exceptional measures. the so—called frugalfour to be exceptional to be less expensive. arguing and even banging on tables but eventually the deal was done. i will come first. european leaders called it historic. is that fair? it is historic. it is
short of hamilton when in the late 18th century the us central bank this is bbc news with the latest effectively became the main carrier headlines for viewers in the uk of debts of separate states, but it and around the world. gyms and swimming pools reopen isa of debts of separate states, but it is a hugely important moment. think in england but there's a warning up to a third may remain shut because of financial troubles. back a few months ago. nobody really it comes as new evidence suggests thought that they could come together in this way. we are talking being overweight or obese brings a greater risk of about how different countries would serious illness or be left high and dry, how difficult death from covid—i9. it would be. it is a sign of unity. 750 billion euros and what is really further restrictions in spain's catalonia region after fears of a important is a lot of it will be given out in grants rather than loa ns given out in grants rather than loans so it is a real sign of unity second wave of the virus. a singaporean man pleads guilty in the us to working as an agent and we have lived through and are still living through extraordinary of china as us officials repossess the chinese consulate in houston. the british grime musician wiley times and it calls for extraordinary is dropped by his management following anti—semitic comments measures. is this a solution to on his social media accounts. problems or a solution to one set of problems or a solution to one set of problems that create further problems that create further problems down the line? that is the
problems down the line? that is the problem because this was truly historic. never have the doubt with so historic. never have the doubt with so much money collectively. we discuss it time and again, the tension between the so—called frugal states in the north and those on the site. warnings that the very existence of the union was at stake and particularly for angela merkel in the twilight years of her rule notjust as in the twilight years of her rule not just as german leader but european media, she knew she had to get this consensus, and i think this mattered more than anything else. it was ground—breaking, to use the word, but the compromises were breathtaking, and the cost, particularly in the medium to long term, could actually lead to a breakdown in some of the important values of the block including
liberal democratic values, respect for the rule of law and reform. how do you figure that? why does it lead toa do you figure that? why does it lead to a potential breakdown in all of that? certainly a chipping away. three areas people are pointing to. this mattered more than anything especially now in this coronavirus crisis were from the very beginning italy said we caught up everyone and nobody came to our help. european leaders recognise that but they failed to respond and attain when there should be european solidarity. in orderto there should be european solidarity. in order to get a consensus angela merkel has assured the hungarian leader she will try to push forward disciplinary measures which had been agreed by the european parliament out of concern agreed by the european parliament out of concern over agreed by the european parliament out of concern over what was described as systemic damage to the rule of law and to democratic values. he said he did not want this hanging over his head so this recovery fund is not linked to the behaviour of states and there is a
concern that in the long run this is going to allow some of the members of the block who have been drifting away from some of the principles, drifting toward autocratic rule, although supporters would say we are doing what hungarians want. number two is the question of monitoring. one of the compromises that was made for the frugal states led by the netherlands was there should be tougher monitoring not just netherlands was there should be tougher monitoring notjust by the european commission but by the member states. what about italy? it is one of the most needy states and regarded as needing the most reform and root and branch comprehensive reform. is not going be possible? or is it for years to come like the greek crisis? journalists who cove red greek crisis? journalists who covered that no it never stopped being in the headlines. finally, the
european commission president recognise this, there is a smaller european budget after brexit and what about the projects which matter? projects which, again, in the climate crisis, health fund, some of the projects also matter to european countries and the future post pandemic if there is a post—pandemic have either been reduced or cut back completely. lots of good questions. your thoughts on all of that? haven't they just broken a bunch of their fiscal rules ? broken a bunch of their fiscal rules? does it matter? where does all of the sleeve the actual engine of the european economy, the actual business functioning of europe? on the rules, i think yes, in a sense, they have, but covid has broken all they have, but covid has broken all the rules. we are not living in the same world in which the rules were made. in the first instance. if you
do not change your opinion when fa cts do not change your opinion when facts change you are stuck. i am not too worried about that. the cost of borrowing is going to remain very low and i do not think this is going to be economically a huge problem of repayment. it could give the eu extra powers in taxation. the contribution from member states might have to increase but i am not sure in political terms whether this could lead to a break—up. i would question that, because i think what is happening... i didn't see break—up. is happening... i didn't see break-up. not break up, but whether this could lead to more problems down the line. i think there is a new dynamic era which is that the european commission and the european union is willing hopefully support and legitimacy in individual member
states directly. you know, this is a huge injection of money and aid. i think it will be much harder hopefully for nationalist, populist politicians to appeal to their own electorates insertive anti—global feelings because there is a direct appeal to the people in those countries and i wonder if this bill is potentially quite bad news for people like victor orban. whether italy can actually manage the structural reforms, i agree that the conflict between the demands of the european union in how this money needs to be spent, how it needs to not just be needs to be spent, how it needs to notjust be splashing around on
things, how it needs to go towards more climate change, green energy structural reform and so on, how thatis structural reform and so on, how that is going to potentially clash with the priorities of national governments, and i do see in that sense conflict there but i think there is a new party in all this, there is a new party in all this, there is a new party in all this, there is a new sort of bond, if you like, between european union and electorates in member states. fascinating discussion, but we are going to leave it there. there will be weeks and months to come back and examine how it is progressing. the british public has waited many months to hear parliament pose night verdict on russian influence in their politics and when it came the report was a grim read, accusing london of badly underestimating the threat posed by moscow. i want to come back to you on that. i know you will have read all of that closely.
was there anything in it to surprise you? what really surprised me is how thin the in detail this report was. the first reaction was is this something really worth holding out for so long? what was that they were trying to, the government was trying to keep out of the media? that is not really that much there on the detail of the allegations of russia's interference. we know russia's interference. we know russia interferes in western states. we know it interfered with scottish referendum. we know it interfered in the us elections. it interfered in spain and catalonia in that referendum, but in terms of concrete evidence it was incredibly thin. to me that showed that the unwillingness of securities services to cooperate with the inquiry possibly because they didn't want to
play a part in politics but the feeling amongst those who follow russia as i do and russia experts was as this it, really? i don't think the public got the answer on whether russia really interfered in brexit referendum. perhaps the most shocking thing was that the government didn't actually want the inquiry to be launched and that is the conclusion of the report, that we don't know whether russia interfered or not because we never asked. your initial thoughts on seeing the report? following up from that, many commented that this has said more about britain than it has about russia, that if you don't ask about russia, that if you don't ask about something then you won't know about something then you won't know about something, and there haven't been enough tough questions asked about the money coming into london, about the money coming into london, about what kind of people were coming into london and whether they
we re coming into london and whether they were linked to the kremlin, what about the financial system, the laws, about money coming in? hence this terrible london in a laundromat where money is then stunned then of course it is spun in the way this financial engagement has been discussed. the intelligence community didn't make it a priority which is surprising because you talk to individual members of the intelligence community and they always say that counter—terrorism is an important priority but they also cite russia and they have been doing that for many years but some felt that for many years but some felt that perhaps, and obviously for legitimate reasons, counter—terrorism given the attacks, attempted an actual, in britain, linked to the islamic state or extremist groups, but that is where their focus had to be. will it be a wake—up call? i think the questions
are being asked and why was it delayed for nine months? why did it ta ke delayed for nine months? why did it take changes to the intelligence community for it to be released? that raises questions as well. you talked about the report but the underlying issues that have just been addressed, i am interested in your views on what you see as the motives for this neglect? do you see it as motives for this neglect? do you see itasa motives for this neglect? do you see it as a bandwidth problem but there was too much about going into counter—terrorism to have the space for the intelligence agencies to deal with the russian threat?|j for the intelligence agencies to deal with the russian threat? i am not sure it is complete negligence to be honest. i have some sympathy both for intelligence agencies and for the government's foreign policy because it is true that there is very little human intelligence capacity in britain in russia
intelligence gathering and that is a problem, that all the resources were directed to the middle east. i think when it comes to cyber the capabilities, britain's capabilities at gchq, are quite solid, and we have seen some quite impressive action in the aftermath of this attempted assassination and the use of the nerve agent, how the intelligence services managed to then attribute blame. you remember that was the russian attempt to hack into the laboratories, the chemical inspection agencies, and that was quite a good, i thought, counterintelligence operation in attribution of blame and exposure of russian military intelligence agents in the uk, and the expulsion of russian diplomats and spooks. on the
foreign—policy side, i think there isa foreign—policy side, i think there is a recognition finally, it couldn't early enough, there is a problem in russian set—up, a domestic problem, and the focus on human rights and focus on to split and separate the kremlin and what it is doing and russian society, which is doing and russian society, which isi is doing and russian society, which is i think partly what the list is aiming to do, and dominic rab's policy, and i think it is all quite... there isn't a magic wand. russian attentions have to change but i think britain is quite good at thinking ahead and thinking long—term. beyond putin and the next three or five years, thinking how we
can have better relationships with russia in 30 years. quickly, if you can, to what extent is it fair to single russia out in this way? isn't it just single russia out in this way? isn't itjust doing influence operations like anyone else or is it in a special category? for many years we have been saying, and certainly it was said in the countries where i spend most of my time reporting, the middle east, that president putin don all this talk about hybrid warfare , don all this talk about hybrid warfare, political warfare, don all this talk about hybrid warfare, politicalwarfare, cyber warfare , warfare, politicalwarfare, cyber warfare, conventional military, but when it comes to london london has been an oasis for people in many countries for a very long time with people coming here either with hard earned cash or ill gotten gains either to flee their countries, persecution in their countries, or to flee justice in their countries.
there have been investigations into nigerian billionaires' money, pakistani billionaires, chinese, hong kong, estate agents in the past week are being asked to is buying property in london and they see the biggest buyers are from mainland china and hong kong, coming here perhaps for different reasons, but russia is not the only. i guess the question is why are they coming here? is it a safe place for the money or themselves or is there something more sinister? given the re ce nt something more sinister? given the recent history of russia with the poisoning and so on, britain, the united states, i think that is why people ask perhaps more questions, they have to, about russia's engagement. before we leave this, i wa nt to engagement. before we leave this, i want to ask you about that us dimension because the us president is still insisting that the miller
investigation into russian interference was a politically motivated witch hunt. how problematic does it make it for the west as an identity in terms of the liberal democracies and their effo rts liberal democracies and their efforts to have that kind of set of rules in their operations? how hard does it make it when the big power is not on board? well, yes, indeed, it has been a very strange world in which the us, which is the main target ina which the us, which is the main target in a way of the main sort of russian rival, has pursued this sort of schizophrenic, donald trump seems to be... the investigation and the institutions and the report is obviously much more detailed than anything we have seen in london and it is not politically motivated in the sense that trump would like us
to believe that this was all about actions and we can never prove how effective russian investigations are but the question was whether donald trump colluded or did anything illegal in working together with russia and that is a different question. it is a very good question to london what kind of russians are coming here and why and my senses that a lot of russian businessmen who are investing in the uk are doing so because they are looking for property rights, for protection and away, and access to the global market. america is a rich enough country to manage on its own and basically shut out any russian investment. we cannot do that.
wonder needs to stay open to global investment. but that global investment. but that global investment can only be mitigated and needs to be mitigated by very strict rules and criteria on what you can and cannot do the, what kind of money you bring, can you explain the origins of this money, and all there needs to be followed through much more thoroughly. i am going to leave that topic again because we have to move on. we cannot get thomas' lined to work so we wish you were here but we are going to manage without you and plough on. when borisjohnson arrived in downing street to year ago he intended to be the prime minister who got brexit done. he didn't want to go down in history as the leader who presided over a pandemic or the one who lost the union but the uk has one of the highest coronavirus death rates in the world and opinion polls in
scotla nd the world and opinion polls in scotland suggests a clear majority for independence. boris johnson scotland suggests a clear majority for independence. borisjohnson went to scotland last week. how did that go? especially in the polarised, he is smiling, environment we live in and a fractured media environment the answer will depend on where you stand in those quite gruelling cracks, if you like, but the message from borisjohnson was cracks, if you like, but the message from boris johnson was that this was, to use his phrase, to show this year might of the union and how they would survive this coronavirus pandemic and he chose the moment marking his one year in power and he we nt marking his one year in power and he went to the orkney islands which of course is north of scotland, as beautiful as they are, it is not the beating heart of scotland. the fact that nicola sturgeon didn't meet him to stand shoulder to shoulder to say yes the great year might of the
union said a lot and so did the opinion polls which were, many would say, the backdrop to this, showing steadily increasing... polls can be fickle and it is a long time to the election in scotland next year, but above 50% of support for independence in scotland six years after the referendum and nicola sturgeon showing very high in the polls after what has been regarded asa polls after what has been regarded as a very steady, competent, reassuring public health message during the coronavirus. why did borisjohnson, the prime minister, go to scotland ? borisjohnson, the prime minister, go to scotland? was it because he is worried about that she might of the union? he said, this is the thing about the pandemic, it is to that it is westminster which was responsible for the economic policy, so the furlough scheme which he said saved
900,000 jobs in scotland, but the public messaging was mainly the responsibility of the devolved governments and they were very different during this crisis. that sets out some of the problems. what do you think his strategy will be to nicola sturgeon‘s calls for a second referendum? will he carry on seeing no? will he try to make a persuasive argument to scots? well he tried to turn on thejohnson charm? he has frozen. is it my multiple choice question? can you hear me? did you hear that? i heard a little bit of it. not all of it. iwas hear that? i heard a little bit of it. not all of it. i was basically saying is he going to carry on seeing no? is he going to make a persuasive argument or try to charm
the scots? what i saw this morning i thought was quite interesting. the polling in the times published and it was tweeted by ruth davidson talking about independence is number seven on the list of priorities in scotla nd seven on the list of priorities in scotland today, that people are much more worried aboutjobs, about covid, about the health system. i wonder whether nicola sturgeon might be thinking this is the moment. it is true she has in no are better lockdown, better coronavirus, better pandemic, then boris johnson, lockdown, better coronavirus, better pandemic, then borisjohnson, but i am not sure, and again this is my guess, and i defer to those who know scotla nd guess, and i defer to those who know scotland much better, but i somehow wonder whether putting this back on the agenda now would be actually
helpful. in financial terms scotland does need money from the central government. the covid moment will pass hopefully in the next few months. i think it will hang on for borisjohnson but months. i think it will hang on for boris johnson but i months. i think it will hang on for borisjohnson but i do not think this will be the basis on which... simply because the lockdown measures we re simply because the lockdown measures were better coordinated, organised, the messaging was better, in scotland, i somehow doubt that will become the triggerfor a scotland, i somehow doubt that will become the trigger for a new movement towards a referendum. we have just got a few seconds left. i wa nt to have just got a few seconds left. i want to get a couple of sentences from each of you on your assessment of boris johnson's first year from each of you on your assessment of borisjohnson‘s first year in power. i think he has actually coped better in some ways than i thought.
he arrived to play a certain role. history has thrown things at ten and and the beginning at least he was showing some leadership, notwithstanding all the celtic... you have had your sentence. he has had his ups and downs. this is a moment when questions are being asked and he needs to get answers. thank you both so much and that is it. we are back at the same place, same time, next week. goodbye.
unsettled weekend on the cards, showery rain and glimpses of blue skies to be seen. this is the picture in cambridge a little bit earlier on, but for most of us, today will be a fairly cloudy affair, some of the rain particularly through the afternoon could be quite heavy and possibly thundery at times. cast your mind back one year ago today, the 25th july 2019, when the highest temperature ever recorded was recorded in cambridge. 38.7 celsius, but today for many of us about 20 degrees cooler at than that. we are dragging the air from the atlantic, cool and westerly, following behind the cold front bringing outbreaks of rain throughout today. low pressure driving the weather. sunny spells, showers rattling around the low pressure and towards the south—east,
some of the rain could be heavy, thundery and quite persistent as well. moving northwards, some sunshine for north wales and northern england. northern ireland heavy showers and thunderstorms in the afternoon. scotland, sunny spells and a few heavy and thundery downpours, especially towards the east. temperatures, top temperatures around 19—21, but it could be 23 or 2a with the warmer air in the east. as the third test continues at old trafford, some rain at times but could be moving through fairly quickly on the breeze so dry weather as well. into tonight, heavy downpours in the south and east gradually clear away, so dry conditions developing overnight for many of us, showers in the far north—west. temperatures on the mild side, looking at double figures. on sunday morning, more sunshine than this morning, but low pressure not far away. sitting towards the north—west,
lots of isobars, heavy showers pushing in across western scotland in particular tomorrow. later in the day, one or two more heavy showers across england and wales. it will feel fresher than it has done in recent days but there will be more blue sky and sunshine to compensate for a slightly fresher temperature. highs of 17—23 on sunday. the new working week is likely to start off showery and unsettled but for many of us, things turning drier and warmer throughout the week. 00:28:24,110 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 goodbye.