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tv   Legal View With Ashleigh Banfield  CNN  June 17, 2015 9:00am-10:01am PDT

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>> paula, thanks so much. those pictures are really amazing to see those animals on the loose. >> such a tragedy. thank you all for joining us at this hour. j. . >> "legal view" with ashleigh banfield starts right now. hello, everyone, i'm ashleigh banfield and welcome to "legal view." any minute we'll take you live to hear what is happening in the massive manhunt for two escaped murderers in upstate new york. the district attorney, state police, they're going to give a full update, so they say, and tell where the search goes from here and where it goes forward because get a map of north america, why not just get yourself a globe and plunk your finger down anywhere on it. that's pretty much where richard matt and david sweat could be right about now. now it's day 12 and police are expanding the search area after telling us the trail has gone
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cold. until now, they have been concentrating on a 10,000 acre area around the prison. the sheriff says he's confident they're not there. so they're moving on but where do they go? the two fugitives have left no clues, no trail but a couple candy wrappers, maybe a footprint. but as far as we know, no one has seen them, interacted with them, or even gotten a whiff of them. they're either hunkered down really well or they are long gone by now. and then there's joyce, the woman accused of helping those two dangerous killers break out of priz. a source close to the case says joyce mitchell knew darn well that her two locked-up lovers planned to kill her husband after they got out. and that she told that husband all about the plan. for his part, lyle mitchell has a lawyer and that lawyer says no way, lyle knew nothing. and i want you to look at these
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artist renditions because the new york state police just let them out to the public. this is what they say richard matt and david sweat may just look like right about now after 12 days on the run and possibly no razors to keep them looking like those mug shots. so get a good look. that's about the only change we may know at this point. so, again, we are waiting, we'll update you on the whos and wheres of this massive manhunt. a lot of mics on that podium, the d.a., sheriff, state police, all of them convening to give us the update on where this search is moving and where their attention and maybe more so though assets rumored to be around a million dollars a day are going to be spent. n the hunt for these two murderers. cnn's polo sandoval is there where the news conference is about to get started. do we have any indication this news conference is going to yield us some tangible information, polo, at this point, or is it just to update us that we're no farther than we
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were back the day they broke out? >> ashleigh, we're standing a few feet from the podium itself. we've seen already several high-level law enforcement officials arrive here at this justice complex. we can only assume they're speaking to the clinton county district attorney before this press conference begins. a few key questions that we are looking to ask here when this gets under way, really. what is the latest on the search efforts? and also potentially the effort to secure an indictment against this female prison employee, the only person behind bars in this case, joyce mitchell. as you mentioned there, ashleigh, at the top, this press conference now coming just moments after new york state police released these images, what they call this natural progression pictures of these two very dangerous individuals that are still on the run after about a week and a half from their prison escape. clearly this is indication now that the officials here in upstate new york want to make sure the public has every tool that they need, as many -- really as many images that they have to help investigators because at this point, ashleigh,
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after such a long, exhaustive search, no real physical evidence has turned up any real leads and also no confirmed sightings, either. so it will be interesting to see what district attorney andrew wily has to say here as well as several of these other law enforcement officials in this exhaustive search, ashleigh. >> polo, i want to remind our viewers as they see these updated pictures, the natural progression pictures and we look at that podium where everyone is waiting, the press corps is waiting for an update. the reason you don't see polo is because we're fixated on this news conference set to start any moment. we're going to hear from three different people, we expect, that's andrew wily, the d.a., but also the clinton county sheriff, david favreau who you've probably seen over the last 12 updates and then also the new york state police we'll hear from major charles guess. you often get a clue as to how critical a story is becoming from the number of mics and the number of cords that lead to
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those podiums. people have been terrified with two dangerous murders on the loose and there's the rest of america wondering if they're making for farther ground to their states. perhaps even to other countries as well. there they are on the bottom left-hand corner of your screen, those natural progression pictures. do we know when the original mug shots were taken? i'm only curious if matt and sweat have been able to lose weight since those pictures were taken, gain weight, change their hair color or at least their hair styles or their length before they were out of prison. the baseline we're starting with is critical as well. >> i agree, ashleigh. the main question is those initial pictures that were
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modified by investigators, how old are they? i thought they were initial booking photo which is lead us to believe they're older than we thought. we know that will be crucial, those images modified by investigators, how much has changed. we've seen several booking photos, in fact, national's been released to investigators that show other images as well, particularly of one of these fugitives, richard matt. so again, ashashleigh, that's a question. how old were those initial photos? clearly an indication investigators want to make sure people have an idea what they could look like after ten days on the run. you've seen that facial hair, possibly changes in the hairline as well. but the sheriff here in clinton county saying this is a fairly unusual move and it does seem to show that investigators -- or at least suggests that investigators could be running out of leads as this trail runs
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cold. >> i'm also curious as to the way we've been updated. we've had periodic bursts of information. i think the most thrilling might have been the fact that they found those wrappers that appear to have come from the prison commissary and the foot or boot or shoe print and the depressed ground. there's been very little since that time. do we know if today's news conference is just sort of par for the course because the press is hungry or that they really have something to tell us that's >> all we can do is report what we've seeing, new york state police have kept the media up to date with press releases, not so many press conferences. we see those every other day or so. so the question is what their plan is for this manhunt. for several days we saw so much
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of the focus was on the -- near west plattsburgh which is a community not far from dannemora, new york, which is where the clinton correctional facility is. now yesterday we heard that they're pretty much shifting their strategy here, now focusing more on the area closer to the prison itself. one of the questions i would like to ask is, is there any hard evidence that led them closer to the initial escape site? and what about these other sfleeds these initial leads we heard about where we heard from new york governor andrew cuomo and his counterpart in vermont saying they are considering they may have escaped, at least crossed state lines and escaped into vermont, a place they thought would not have, at least as high a police presence as we're seeing here. and the other potential lead that takes investigators to the u.s./mexico border. we've reported some of this information that richard matt has family ties and has contacts in several human smuggling operations along the u.s./mexico
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border so there was very real concern here after this escape happened that they could have slipped right through the net and not only left the area but also left the country, ashleigh. >> so polo, stand by for a moment as we keep the live picture up of the podium. we expected them to take to those mics almost ten minutes ago so we'll continue to watch. as we do that, and i'll break into programming right away just as soon as we get this live update, i also want to touch on something with larry levine, a former federal inmate and the founder of wall street consultants. larry, for lack of a better description, you often in your work train people who are off to prison into how they're going to handle it, what it's going to be like on the inside because -- and i'm going to just pause for a moment if i can because the officials have come to the podium. larry, i'll speak with you in a moment but let's go to plattsburgh, new york, where the d.a. andrew wily, clinton county sheriff david favro and major charles guest of the new york state police are lining up to update us on this search.
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>> good afternoon, everyone. at this point in time initially i'd like to address the individuals that are present with me today and some of us will be speaking briefly with you to provide you with an update on the case status of the two escaped inmates, matt and sweat and also status regarding joyce mitchell we have major guess, captain of the new york state police is present with us. sheriff dave favro, the clinton county sheriff's department. we have chris grogan with cpp, tom gal gar with air marine, norm mg hugh with u.s. border patrol, paul bhongilio, u.s. field operations, tim bradford with the fbi, captain north with docks, captain deraa with dec police, captain stripe from the state forest rangers, dave
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mcnulty with the u.s. marshalls and police chief desmond rascoe. at this point in time to start awfully ask major guest to provide a briefing on the status of the search and. >> thank you, district attorney. as the d.a. said, i'm chuck guess, the incident commander for this escape. i'll start off with a brief prepared statement. i'll start off with a brief prepared statement and following that others will address this and then we'll open it up for questions. today search for escaped inmates richard matt and david sweat will expand and shift to other areas surrounding dan mortar. a personnel are being redeployed based on information gathered during the investigation. people in the region should expect to see law enforcement in their community as the search expan expands. state police along with the new york state department of
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environmental conservation officer, forest rangers, the department of corrections, community services supervision, the fbi, u.s. marshals, u.s. customs and border protection, the clinton, franklin, and essex county sheriff's departments, the plattsburgh city police department have searched 16 square miles. naught into context, that's over 10,000 acres to date. all available assets continue to be deployed around the clock, including canine, aviation, and tactical units. more than 1, 400 leads have been developed at this point in the investigation. in connection with this redeployment, the portion of route 374 that was closed in cadyville was reopened last night. patrols in the immediate area will continue. law enforcement personnel previously manning the roadblocks along the closed section of route 374 will be shifted to other sectors. the state police want to thank all of our state, federal, and local law enforcement partners, many of who are standing with us here today and continue to
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provide the much-needed manpower, equipment and expertise for this effort. we also want to thank the communities for their continued patience and support. as always, the public should not hesitate to report any suspicious activity by contacting 911, your local law enforcement agency or the new york state police to record any information related to the investigation or using our tip line, 1-800-give-tip. as a personal note, i'd like to remind all involved that the volume of purported confidential information provided to the media by unnamed source or those allegedly close to the investigation does not aid in this investigation. in fact, it imperils the investigation. those responsible put our law enforcement officers and responders at risk, hampers our ability to get ahead of the fugitives and prolongs the threat to the general public. in my 25 years of law enforcement experience, i've never witnessed better interagency cooperation. while no incident is perfect,
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especially with this volume of information, size, scope, and scale of the investigation, we are well coordinated as evidenced by the team behind me. i'd now like to turn it over to captain la fountain who's our captain in troop b. >> good afternoon. i would first of all like to thank all of our partners that are here who have been so instrumental in the investigation to date and continue to do so. i'd also like to thank the public who continue to report suspected sightings or provide us with information which may prove to be the one lead we know will result in these dangerous criminals apprehension. if there's one word, it's relentless, we are going to pursue every lead and we will locate these individuals and
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they will be apprehended. on the opening hours, my colleagues locally reached out to me. i didn't even have to reach out to them, and offered whatever assistance they could offer. plattsburgh city police chief had his detectives dispatched to the prison where they assisted with the interviews that were pertinent to the investigation in obtaining information. that was quickly followed by the sheriff's department responding to set up roadblocks and patrols and assist us in responding to the many possible sightings or to help contain the scene. that was followed by our federal partners who have arrived and have remained both locally and throughout the nation to ensure that every single lead that we have received is being followed up on. the complexity of this investigation cannot be described but i can assure everybody here and everyone
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who's listening or reading these reports that every lead is being followed up on to its conclusion, no matter where they that lead is. today we have established approximately 1,300 leads that have either been investigated or are under investigation at this time during this conference. we will continue to do so until these people are apprehended. i would also like to emphasize that that negotiation the contingent of personnel that you've mean? dannemora for the bureau of criminal investigation for the new york state police, that's approximately 110 investigators, we have teams of investigators in other law enforcement agencies throughout the state and region who are pursuing leads as they become available. i can tell you right now as well that we have no information that they have been able to leave the area. that being said, it doesn't mean
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that they haven't been able to escape this area but we have no information. so therefore we are concentrating our efforts not only in this vicinity but throughout the nation and beyon beyond. >> thank you, captain. at this time, i would ask that city police chief desmond racicot come up to the podium and he's going to talk to you about the collaborative effort that each of our law enforcement agencies made and chief i'd ask you to come up, please. >> thank you. as captain lafountain from the new york state police said, on the morning of the escape we were in direct contact with his office and they requested that we have investigators from plattsburgh police department respond to the prison where we could can assist with in house interviews of inmates. at that time we know that they had a head start on us, we've deployed our special response team, as far as other members of the department to help assist with the perimeter and to
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respond to issues. the collaborative effort is a very important part of this and what's making all these leads possible to be thoroughly worked through. the one thing i would like to stress is that if you have any information, no matter how small or how insignificant you think it is, to contact 911, contact the police. last night i had a personal friend of mine pass some information along to me from a third party and i said well, you've got to call the police right away, don't wait on these things. if you think something is even remotely suspicious, contact us. any little piece of information could help break the case wide open. thank you. >> as each of you are aware, the only individual at this point in time that is in custody and that has been arrested as far as her participation in the escape is joyce mitchell. joyce mitchell is presently at the rensselaer county jail and
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ask sheriff favro to address you relative to her incarceration at this point in time and what the status is on that. >> thank you. as you look around, i recognize many of the faces and i'm sure on my cell phone and my text messaging i have most if not all of your numbers in there. so as you can see by the volume of people here from the media today, take this volume and move this to the jail location, which has one road coming in and one road coming out. just because of this massive manhunt and this escape, the business of the city police, the state police, border patrol, customs and the clinton county sheriff's department does not stop. we have to continue our operations. we have to run a safe, secure facility. it makes it very difficult to near impossible to do that when we're inundated with telephone call, cameras, truck kwirjts et cetera. therefore we had to move her, which we can under corrections
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law 5040 with a substitute jail order down to rensselaer county. my colleagues have been very helpful getting us information, anything we need to assist with the transport and assist with the incarceration. to dove tail with what my colleagues have said, with the change and scope of the search, with the type of search we're doing, although this was called by the district attorney and everybody you're referring to it as a press conferencesy personally would like to refer to it as a pep rally. i think we need to let the community know that since we don't have concrete leads indicating they may be outside the area, we still need to stay motivated. we still need the assistance of the eyes and ears giving us your information. as i've stated before and a lot of my colleagues have, individuals know their property better than we ever could. so take a look at your surroundings if something does not look right, something is out of place, doesn't appear to be appropriate, there's tracks where there shouldn't be tracks
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please notify the local authorities, let them know that information as expeditiously as possible so one of the agencies can follow up on it. that will be our biggest key to success is keeping everybody motivated and keeping everybody alert and looking. thank you. >> that concludes the initial statements that each of us will make at this point in time. now we'd open the -- basically the floor up to questioning and i'd ask we try to do in a manner which we can, one, hear your questions with, two, address those with each of you and we're not going to spend an hour out here doing this. we'll take this for a few minutes, probably up to ten questions or so and try to deal with it in that way. >> can you tell us the number of personnel that would be involved in total and if you have any idea about the direction of
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travel? >> i'll turn that over to the maj major. >> presently on the ground we have in excess of 600 law enforcement officers working the scene. direction of travel, since we've closed the perimeter box after thoroughly sweeping that area our intention is to look at the viable high-speed avenues of egress from dannemora prison facility into points in all cardinal directions. we're not ruling anything out, we're not taking anything for granted. >> reporter: major, is there any plans to. [ inaudible ] >> i won't comment on pending investigations or arrests. >> reporter: may i ask a we do captain lafountain? hi, captain, anna werner with cbs news. even though you're looking elsewhere, do you feel like there's many miscalculations in spending so much time searching so close to the prison? >> absolutely not. we have to start from the --
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from point zero, which was the dannemora prison and we expanded. it's based on information that we obtained throughout the -- during the initial stages of the investigation. we have to exhaust that. as i said, there's no hard evidence that they are outside the area. that being said, i cannot rule that out. but we're going under what i think is the logical belief they can be anywhere. we won't rule this area out until we have identified a location that they're at. and verified that. >> so no hunch right now as to where they are? >> i don't operate based on hunches. we operate based on evidence. that's what we're looking for. >> reporter: are law enforcement looking at surveillance video that came in yesterday of five men in a red van at a convenience store? they say the tape only came in yesterday? >> we are looking at surveillance video. i can tell you this. there is no technique or law
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enforcement tool that is not being used by the state police or by our federal agencies. any avenue that needs to be pursued will be pursued. we're doing it in a joint -- in coordinated fashion and effort. we're reviewing every piece of evidence that we possibly can. >> reporter: [ inaudible question ] >> reporter: it's been 12 days since all this began. i think many people hoped for a quick resolution. the fact that it's approaching two weeks and there's been no capture of these escapees has made some people wondering how efficient this process has been. can you talk about that? is it unfair to expect a quick resolution and can you guarantee these gentlemen will be arrested eventually? >> it is my belief, very my strong belief that each and every one of these members of law enforcement that are out -- have been working since saturday morning on this case are putting in every effort that they can.
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we're talking about two men who have been very elusive. they came up with a very elaborate and creative plan to escape from one of the most secure facilities in new york if not in the united states. so that is what we are defending right now and as far as the efforts of each and every one of those law enforcement officers, you cannot discredit that in one single bit. i fully support the efforts that they have. as captain lafountain just indicated, we had a massive perimeter search in an area that we had information that these two men could have been at we haven't exhausted that but we need to open this up as the major and captain have indicated. >> reporter: is it unfair to expect a quick resolution? do you need to prepare the public for this to be a long weeks, months search? >> sir, they may be -- you know, they may be located today. we don't know. we may get that lead today that will allow us to pursue that arrest. i'll leave any further comments
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to the major, though. >> the question was, was it a waste of time or did we delay the investigators' effort? that's an emphatic know. capta captain lafountain answered that. no. >> reporter: major, we spoke to residents who are scared, frightened, who are concerned that these individuals haven't been captured. it seems like little progress has been made. how do you comfort them? >> we comfort them with the appearance of the assets behind and a consistent message that we're doggedly pursuing every lead, on the ground having a visible police presence and that we are there in the community even though the roadblocks and perimeter no longer exist we have quadrupled the number of roving patrols. there's still a very strong presence in this region. >> are they safe in their country homes and hunting camps in the woods? >> obviously there are hundreds if not thousands of hunting camps and homes in this region.
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we've gone door to door on a good portion of those and we've used certain techniques to advise the homeowners that we have checked the property and if they haven't been there yet this season we've asked them upon arrival to let us know that. if there are any questions or if they need us to come to the scene before they make first entry, we're willing to do that to assure their safety. >> reporter: [ inaudible question ] >> i'm sorry? >> reporter: are these men receiving help besides joyce mitchell now that they're on the outside? have you developed information that they may have additional outside help? >> we're looking at everything outside and inside the facility. i cannot comment beyond that because that would affect our confidential investigation. >> reporter: are you scaling back the numbers of officers out there searching? at one point you had 800 or more. are there fewer throughout? if so, why? >> that's a great question. it's roughly 200 less. the reason far is simple. since we're no longer containing a hard perimeter, we want to release those individuals back to their facilities. typically they come from our department of corrections and
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community services. they can go back and refit. the next move may be we harden a perimeter someplace and they're immediately deploy. i can assure you we've retained the number of tactical, canine, aviation and ground search elements to close in rapidly on any location given the proper lead for our investigations. >> reporter: can you talk about joyce mitchell's state when she was moved to the county jail and on s she on suicide watch? >> let me answer this gentleman's question first. we'll do that as long as it take takes. >> she's rather composed. she watches the media, she sees what's happening so that can have an effect on somebody. the term "suicide watch" hasn't been used in the facility we put one officer on an inmate like this because of everything going on, it's human nature it could
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have multiple impacts on somebody, both emotionally and physically, things the medical field couldn't predict. so rather than wait for something to happen we're taking a proactive stance to make sure she's safe and secure. >> reporter: can i ask you about post-it notes that might have been found in the jail cell or along the route? do they offer any clues as to where these gentlemen are? >> i have seen articles concerning a post-it note. we'll verify one was found. i won't speculate on the meaning behind it. >> reporter: can you tell me how many were found? >> no, ma'am. >> reporter: can you tell us whether the husband may have known about this escape ahead of time? and the plot to kill him? >> we have not had -- law
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enforcement officials that are here today right now have not spoke within the investigators that are interviewing or have interviewed lyle mitchell. as far as -- as of today we had no information whatsoever that he had prior knowledge of the escape, that he actively assi assisted in the escape of the two inmates so that's my response to you. >> d >>. >> reporter: did he have prior knowledge? >> if he had prior knowledge and he assisted he could be facing a facilitation charge. >> reporter: what about that alleged murder-for-hire plot. what can you tell us about that? >> what i can tell you is that the reports that it was discussed between joyce mitchell and the two escapees, the information we had from joyce mitchell is that that occurred.
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that plot had occurred and that's all i'll speak of of that because we don't want to get into the relative issues on the investigation. >> reporter: can you walk us through where else in the country, where outside this area the investigation has taken, the state police and also federal law enforcement? what states, what countries? >> no, i can't. the reason for that are is quite simple. we all know from past experience that these people watch the news and they listen. we're not going to tip our hand as to where we're looking. we are embedded with the fbi, the u.s. marshal service and other federal agencieagencies. we will go wherever we are needed, whether we send teams of state police investigators wherever the lead may be or we rely upon our federal partners or other law enforcement throughout the country or other countries we will do that the
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u.s. marshal service is ensuring that the border is well aware of these escapees and the past history associated with that. the flyers are being distributed by the marshal service, we're reaching out to our partners to assist us in that. but to give you specific locations, no, it wouldn't be appropriate and i'm sure you understand the reasoning behind that. >> last question, guys. >> we're going to wrap this up right now and we want to thank you for being here. obviously i'll be available to speak with you in more detail and other issues at a later time but right now we appreciate you being here and we'll close the questions. thank you. >> >> there you have it. if you were expecting to have earth-shattering news for these two murderers on the loose, maybe not earth shattering but a couple notes worth rementioning. that is this -- joyce mitchell, the woman accused of helping these two killers break free,
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she's been moved 140 miles south of plattsburgh, the officials saying it's become too difficult with the number of press, the requests, the one lane in an out of the jail where she's being held. she's been moved to the rensselaer county jail. so she has a new place to live while these two guys have somewhere else. where that is they still don't know but they did say this. they are concentrating this shift throughout the nation. a couple of other things of note. the number of officers involved in that multiagency effort are down 200. they're down to 600. we've been putting the pictures up for you because the artist's rendition of what they might look like after 12 days on the run presuming they don't have ray ors or any way to cut their hair, this is the best we can
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do, folks. if they have the 12 day growth, this is what they might look like now. we also know they're checking what they call high-speed areas of egress. that's a fancy way of saying the freeways and maybe the trains because that might have been the fastest way to get out of that particular area if, in fact, they are no longer there. what that means for what they're checking and what directions and which plots along those high speed areas of egress i cannot tell you, they would not tell us. there was a question about the murder-for-hire reporting that's been out there. sources have told numerous agencies, media agencies that joyce mitchell may, in fact, have been involved in conversations with those two inmates to murder her husband. that was actually -- that was addressed and we were told by the d.a. that he said she did discuss with those two escapees the murder plot. that had occurred, that discussion. as far as other people or for
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hire, no other names, no other concentric circles built at least publicly right now. the other neat is of critical import to those watching, perhaps, many, many states away, let's say way down south. apparently we are being told the mexican border, the u.s. marshals on the mexican border are well aware of these escapees and they have been told to be on the lookout, they have had fliers circulating around those american agents who work the mexican boarder to see if they are, indeed, trying to cross southward. i want to bring in larry levine. i told you about larry about 30 minutes ago, the former federal inmate, founder of wall street consultants, joining him as well, joey jackson. larry, back to you, i wanted to ask you a question about whether inmates talk all the time about escape plans, what they would do, where they would go, how far they would go. are you able to give me any insight as all as to these kinds of conversations and what the
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impetus would be for two guys who got free and have 12 days now? would they stay close hunkered down or would they get as far away as they could on those high-speed areas of egress that were just mentioned? >> well, of course. you know, they had a seven hour head start. these cops really other than maybe congratulating themselves for working with each other, they have nothing. they've said that. they ought to be spending their time looking instead of going on tv. but inmates in an institution, everybody's thinking of escaping. i used to watch people walk the fenceline. people would take their watch and time how long it would take for the perimeter trucks to go around the institution. that's the the main thing on everybody's mind, how do i get out of here? they're not looking at the ramifications if they do escape. the one thing is get on the other side of the fence. so seven hour roughly head start. these guys are gone.
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with all the resources they have there and they've had there, if they were around the perimeter of the institution, i don't know, a three, four, five-mile area, they would have found them by now. >> i just want to interrupt you. are you saying that in those conversations that you overheard as a federal inmate yourself, when prisoners talk about escaping and that they plot all the time that they are not planning what happens when you get on the other side of the wall? that they are not saying "i'm getting a train, i'm getting someone to meet me and i am going to such a such a place or such and such a country? >> it's a pipe dream. everybody's fantasy is escaping. a lot of people, they want to go, they don't tell other inmates. a weak link in the whole system is going to get somebody captured. and it's ironic probably after i say this now every warden and every prison is going to go to the law library, they're going to take the telephone books out
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of the law library and they're going tear the maps out of them. so essentially the institution is giving inmates maps of the surrounding area. gee, now we can plan our escape. but inmates won't tell other inmate what is they're doing because in every institution there's informants, rats, snitches, call them what they are that are looking to just run to the authorities, give them information, possibly hope to get time knocked off their sentence. hell, maybe even extra telephone call, foold, visit, something. >> it's currency, sure. >> i don't think these guys confided in other inmate what is their plans were. >> hold that thought, larry. i want to get joey on that. what larry is saying they may fantasize all they want, walk the fence lines to find a way to get out but right now the "new york times" was talking about how clinton is on lockdown. families can barely even speak. there is undoubtedly a squeeze
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for information. the authorities have hinted that they think there are other accomplices. >> 100% there's a squeeze. the other thing is not so much they will give information, they may have given affirmatively misinformation to other prisoners so that they can put out a trail that would be a tip but would be a tip that was followed to get them, that is the authority, to look in places that they don't intend to be. >> that's what i would do. >> so the reality is you tell an inmate something, the majority -- snitches end in ditches, we've heard that, they don't speak. but we've heard from those as larry speaks to that can get benefits so if you plan an elaborate escape, maybe you tell a couple close friends, hey, i know these people. and these inmates are known to associate with a few of those guys so you tell people who people in the prison know you speak to, but you give them the wrong information, that's something they could have done, too. >> throwing them off the trail. larry levine and joey, thank you both. i appreciate that. the update not much of an
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update, sorry, can't give you much other than we don't have them, we're looking farther afield at this point and joyce mitchell has a new place to call home, about 140 mile drive from where her husband is if he's going to be visiting her anymore at all given the fact the report tong murder for hire plot was discussed between mitchell and these two inmates. that's just confirmed by the d.a. anybody's guest. coming up next, not only is rachel dolezal denying she's white, she's casting doubt on whether her white mom and her white dad are even her real parents where is this going? ♪ [music] jackie's heart attack didn't come with a warning. today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen.
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former naacp leader rachel dolezal continues to defend herself against claims that she has lied about her race. dolezal telling nbc news that she identifies as a black woman and also has doubts over whether her white parents are actually her biological parents. >> you doubt whether those -- ruthann and larry who say they are your parents, you doubt whether they're your parents? >> i'm saying i can't prove that. >> there's a birth certificate that has your name on it. why would you doubt something so fundamental. >> i'm not saying that i can prove they're not but i don't know that i can prove they are.
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a birth certificate is issued a month and a half after i'm born. it certainly -- there were no medical witnesses to my birth. it was in the woods -- >> who do you think your parents might be? >> well, i don't know. like i said, i just don't feel like i can necessarily say now with the full scrutiny of can you prove that you are larry and ruthanne's biological child that actually has never been proven. >> it's one thing to embrace the questions as an academic matter. it's another thing to just actually be honest and transparent about who you are. and i think that's where people are having trouble with you, rachel. i think that they feel that you have been for whatever reason and perhaps wonderful reasons acting like you're something that you are not. >> right. . well i definitely am not white.
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nothing about being white describes who i am. so, you know -- what's the word for it? the closest thing that i can come to is if you're black or white, i'm black. i'm more black than i am white. so on a level of values, lived experience currently -- i mean, just in this moment that's the answer. that's the accurate answer from my truth. but i do ask -- i mean, i hope that the dialogue continues to push against what is race, what is ethnicity. >> i'm not sure that's where the dialogue is going on this one. i'm not white? when so many people have seen evidence of who she was as a younger person? she herself was forced to look at that evidence on the "today" show and said she was 16 in younger pictures. there she is beside her african-american husband and she
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is -- i don't know, call me crazy, white. . it's a little like that moment when she was asked the question so simply, "are you an african-american woman?" and she said "i don't understand the question." this is what annoys people about this story. among other things. this morning rachel's own brother ezra dolezal told cnn's news day that his sister is too nervous to tell the whole truth. >> i think she doesn't -- she's too nervous to just admit that she's not been telling the truth. which is why she keeps on making up more and more lies to help fit the story as it goes. like, she was changing her story multiple times within the past week. like she did say a lot of things differently yesterday that she has said before. >> like what? >> like originally she did say she was born black and now -- yesterday she was mentioning about being -- about identifying
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herself as black but originally she said she was born black. >> joining me from spokane, washington, to talk about this racial controversy is former naacp colleague catarra johnson who started the petition calling for dolezal's resignation from the civil rights advocacy group. thank you for being with us. are you -- do you have any further answers now since these interviews have been conducted? and since this woman has spoken of "her truth"? >> it's interesting that she says her truth as an academic and as a person who was actually a professor at a university to stand and say "this is my truth." that means that you know that you're telling a lie. and as simple as that every time in the first interview where she says that she's going to open up and come and tell her story, every time she was posed with a
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simple question where she was supposed to tell the truth she would state that "it's much more complex than that. it's much more complex than that." that let miss know that she has -- at first i thought, you know, maybe this is a psychological disorder. but know i'm convinced she's a con artist. because you're fully aware of what you're doing because the story gets even more ridiculous as the day went on the more she did interviews. and then to say that you have lived an experience of an african-american is just ridiculous. in spokane we wanted to forgive rachel. i have forgiven her. now it's just like i shake my head and i want to turn and walk away. it's so hard to listen to her without bursting into laughter and at this point she's made a comedy spectacle of herself. and for people who have to wake up everyday in this skin, we can not change it. we can not wash it off. so to bring up something like
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transracial, it's unfair. if i put on makeup and i said, you know, i'm going to be white today, i couldn't pass that off. if i had an accent, i couldn't pass it off. >> i want to ask you and i've asked other guest this is as well and particularly you as an african-american woman and a leader. is the outtlaj is so palpable, there's a cacophony of it across the country, is the outrage proportional to the so-called crimes? >> yes, it is. because we need to hold our leaders accountable. you have to have integrity and you have to be able to stand because people can't follow you or listen to anything you say if every word you say contradicts itself and you are telling a lie within a lie. every interview i've seen of her she starts a story and now she says "it's my truth." ad then to try to fake tear, i don't believe this woman is capable of human emotions and i'm just being honest.
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i try my best to preserve everyone's character, but people are outraged in spokane because she's bringing discredit upon our into city, as if we were all fools. the truth of the matter is spokane residents are not crazy, we weren't fools, we just didn't care. her race was neither here nor there, we could care less about the color of her skin. what we were concerned about is if you represent an organization as a leader and you say you're advocating for people, who ku h you believe any statistic that comes out of your mouth whether you understand the statistic whether you're black or white. >> it's hard for anybody to just bald-faced lied to such as "i'm not white. kitara johnson, thanks for being with us, i appreciate you taking the time. >> no problem, thank you. as a fifth juror has now been dismissed in the colorado theater shooting trial, there are some incredibly disturbing
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details about what james holmes told his own psychiatrist in the months before he went into that sheeter and killed so many people. could dr. lynn fenton have stopped him?
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the colorado movie theater shooter apparently was obsessed
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with killing people and thought about it three to four times a day and did not keep that a secret. james holmes told someone -- his psychiatrist. he did it just months before the attack. this is day 33 of his trial and it was witness number 206 who captivated everyone's attention in that courtroom. dr. lynn fenton was that psychiatrist who treated holmes for three months from march, 2012, to june, 2012. one month later he killed 12 people. relatives of some of the victims have filed suit against the university and against dr. fenton saying she should have done more to stop him. while holmes was in fenton's care, here are a couple things he purchased for the attack -- tear gas grenades, a gas mask kit and on june 6, 2012, handcuffs, roadsters with eight spikes and a trauma bandage.
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granted, he gave some thought after for care, but some of those things were bought during care. five days after he left, holmes had his last therapy session and dropped out of treatment. just five days after. fenton says she has no clue about his purchase, she didn't know about his plans and therefore could not force him to be locked up. >> to qualify for a mental health hold, they need to have a couple things and one is evidence that it's not just a thought but they have a plan. there's moving towards action on those thoughts. the second thing is there has to be a specific target and he all along had denied both of those. >> hln legal analyst and defense attorney joey jackson joins me now. i understand what she's saying but if you're someone in that gallery who either lost a leg, can't walk anymore, was shot,
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lost a baby -- >> you may not be so understanding. >> lost a loved one, you may not understand any of it. what exactly does that threshold she was describing mean? >> let's start here with the privilege. it's important to talk about this, ashleigh, in a balanced way, the first reaction is why didn't she tell anybody? is she kidding? he mentioned he thought about killing people three or four times a day and she said nothing? how dare her. the importance of the privilege is to protect the information that's conveyed to you. if you're a doctor treating someone you want them to be forthcoming. you don't want them to chill that communication because in order to treat them you need to know what you need to treat. similar to the attorney/client privilege. there's an expression, there's two people you never lie to, your lawyer and your doctor, both can save your life. but if you don't know the full details, you can't. now let's move on into whether she has an obligation to report, which is the threshold. there's a saying, it says "the privilege ends where the public
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peril begins. the privilege ends where the public peril begins." so if you believe your client represents a danger to him or herself or others that's where your obligation begins, but if you're merely rambling about it, that's what they're seeing you for, because off psychiatric issue, that's why you're there. >> here's my problem. i completely understand that what you're saying but that peril for me might have begun at him reading and speaking about the unibomber and about the tylenol terrorist. at some point, so much fantasy, so much strange behavior, so much aggression, that has to cause peril. >> absolutely. but is it imminent? do you believe they're going to carry it out? understand, you don't get punished for your thoughts. many people have very tragic and terrible thoughts. you get punished for your actions. do i believe as your treating physician you'll carry them out? if i do, i have to tell. if i don't i am ethically bound to protect it. subject of a lawsuit, though, we know that. >> this conversation is going to
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be litigated in that lawsuit against the university and against dr. fenton. joey jackson, it's troubling, thank you. appreciate the insight. thank you for watching. my colleague wolf blitzer takes it from here. >> hello, i'm wolf blitzer. it's 1:00 in washington, 6:00 p.m. in london, 7:00 p.m. in rome, 8:00 p.m. in moscow. wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us. 12 days on the run, 16 square miles, more than 10,000 acres searched, 1400 leads followed up but still two escaped murderers here in the united states have managed to elude authorities. at a news conference just a little while ago, police announced they are expanding their search for these two convicted killers. >> today the search for escaped inmates richard matnd

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