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tv   Robert Scoop Jackson The Game is Not a Game  CSPAN  May 31, 2020 1:50pm-3:21pm EDT

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the foreign policy challenges facing the united states. that's followed by cultural writer with the look of how women experience and manage power. the full schedule for this weekend is available @booktv or on your program guide. >> welcome. and thanks to everyone for joining us today from around the world. they are countries and cities i could name right now folks getting on the line. we really appreciate you being here. just you know who i am, i am not a relief pitcher from the 1985 houston astro's even though my hair is gotten long in corona land going over my ears like it never has in my life it i am the sports editor of the nation magazine before introduce the man of the hour, scoop jackson i got a little bit of housekeeping i've got to think the organized with haymarket books. the number of books of radical thinkers like scoop jackson,
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angela dale of davis, klein and so many others. we need bold radical ideas right now and it is critical we support independent publishers in bookstores you can do this in three ways. one, by buying books from haymarket. two,.joining haymarket book club. and three if you are in a position to make a donation, no matter how small the event will though be a cart on screen on how to do this and folks posting that information in the youtube chat as well. this video will be recorded in shade "after words" on the haymarket youtube channel like and share this video with as many people as possible and please consider following haymarket on their social media channel and signing up for the newsletter. haymarket has more important lifestream events lined up we hope you can join us on may 19, abolished ice is not a slogan immigrant justice in the age of coronavirus with
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john washington among other great events you can find these and other haymarket events at haymarket book youtube channel. a little bit more housekeeping request, with salmon people joining this call we may need your forbearance if we have any technical issues. if your stream gets choppy it might help to get reduce your image quality folks will give instruction in the chat. if the youtube feed is interrupted for any reason you may need to navigate back to the youtube haymarket book cajun hit resume in case of interruption. this video will be recorded and shared "after words", we will have time for q&a scoop is great on the q&a and i will answer any questions you got as well. so please post your questions on the live video feed wherever you are watching it. that's on the haymarket youtuber facebook just comment on the stream, on twitter post a reaction directly on the video, and hate we've got haymarket books with got up live right now on twitter, i
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am retreating it right now so people can jump on because i like that and now it is my pleasure to bring and, i call him the coal train of the sports page. i've been calling him a coal train of the sports page for over ten years, i tried to make it catch on is a thing because when i used to read scoop on subway ready my slam magazine, i've called and the culturing of the sports page before i even knew that he was a flesh and blood person and not just a figure behind these terrific articles. he is a national senior writer for espn, he's covered issues of race, culture and sports for various publications over 25 years former executive editor of slam magazine, former publisher of the agenda and author of this book, which i absolutely love it is called the game is not a game. the power for politics and american sports i can't recommend it highly enough.
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his name is scoop jackson. scoop perry doing sir? >> guest: i am good my man i appreciate this this is an honor if anybody knows how far we go back and how much love i think we've got for one another, we are our brothers from other mothers. this is big for me so i appreciate it. thanks for so i've got to show everybody my hat and i want you to show everybody and explain the poster behind you. first this hat of minor got to show people this. this is from another haymarket author, from the 68 olympics but he gave me this hat he has the olympic colors at the shadow in there and look at this cool part. flip it up. the artwork of john carlos, tommy smith and the australian runner peter norman. just showing off my hat for everybody. >> guest: behind me is a portrait of my office of ali that i convinced to do for me
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of a long ali's passing. actually it's a post visit white backdrop because putting on aye wall but he surprised me when he sent it to me is a piece we did i did on sportscenter about a lien honorarium of him and his legacy. he took the script put in the backdrop that means a lot to me. the centerpiece in my office in chicago. looks similar to this but first i want to introduce you to around the country that may not necessarily know about you and your background. i find absently fascinating. can you tell folks about how you came up? about your parents there politics their commitment and how that translate into your
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life customer. >> my mother and father were both members of the black panther party. my father probably more and because he was a newspaper journalist who the first black newspaper reporter in chicago, one of the first ten in the country. my mother was a social worker. she was also a public activist. silt back in the day in the 60s i was born in 63, they're both contributing members to the party. i was raised under that. i was raised under that mentality. kind of came with it from everything i have done it's kind of been my foundation. not that so the panther party but that mode of thinking of black self-esteem. and not only that, i live in
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an area with south shore chicago. my wife and i we've been together for 26 years, married longer than that together. with never left south shore. as for the mosque where islam is. i came up like blocks away with my mother and father not necessarily claiming any certain religion, not only growing up in a household is rooted in black panther ideology, we grew up from his religious standpoint of following the word not as fairly religiously but culturally down the street.
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the roots of black empowerment black entrepreneurship, do for yourself or die a slave, that mentality that exists to my career to find a way to navigate using that is not necessarily a lead but does not make any sense at all. >> anybody reads this book will see it. go through the idea not just black pride but black empowerment. and using sports as a platform is an antiracist platform. as it should be given the facts without black bodies you don't have this multibillion-dollar athletic industrial complex. we need to be reminded that more than we are. >> think we're in a situation right now my thing as a writer
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you look at it through that prism. i think sometimes we get away from that because the power of black athletes in america has risen to a level where we almost forget that as powerful as black athletes have come collectively they still don't hold the power. with me, i look at the cultural and business side not just the performance i but the cultural and business side of sports what does a half, there is a prism that lends itself you're always distinctively understand race plays in that. i'd tried to consolidate that prism in the 13 chapters. >> and you do it which is so impressive. when you say that about this
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appearance of power without the actuality of power, really does make me think about some of the news today but the national football league. they're going to have a big three hour special on espn where they can unveil the schedule, the nfl is talking if the coronavirus is just a distraction or dust on their shoulder. they're going. my head this fall with games this fall. it makes me think about the lack of power of the black athlete in this particular scenario. typical career only last three years, contracts are not guaranteed, and nfl ownership, they need these games played to get billions of dollars in broadcast funds. the athletes themselves are in a position where frankly a lot of american workers are in this position outwards like play or go home, work or go home. : :
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: >> inward for lease. >> yeah, right. >> on a temporary basis. so i see that and i see the importance for what you bring to double to be part of the sports dialogue. >> it's interesting you say the way you view that and it made you look at that dynamic as far as black players and -- i immediately thought about the lack of black executives. i put the players aside. there's nobody in the nfl in position to even further this conversation and say, hey, let's not do this because of this. and i wasn't even think of the ownership situation because there are no black owners but just from the executive standpoint, somebody to use a proverbial term with a seat at
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the table, and not serving the table. actually sit down as an equal or partner or a voice, or voices, to say to the -- the nfl owners and the commissioner and all the other executives, in that business mode or in a business model we call the nfl, you know what? we need to at least think about this because this is how it's going to effect this. can we rethink this? can we not treat this virus as an aside? >> right. >> maybe you about somebody in the room looking for the societal effect. or the societal role it will play in others making decisions. not just the nfl putting out a schedule. it's the ill pact the nfl has and how people connect with that and react to what the nfl does. >> right. >> without having any executives
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or anybody of power, real true executive power within the nfl think tank to further that discussion or push that agenda, elite to the table, so there may she hesitancy in putting out a schedule or moving forward they way they're going to move forward. it would be good. my mind went straight to the fact we have no black executives or executives of color who are connected to the situation we're in a much different way than rich, white men who to at least make them think about something differently. >> what you're saying strikes to the heart of win and how sports will re-open because this president put together his re-open sports committee, and his committee is -- it would be shocking we haven't been living through this for four years but it's all the male sports commissioners are for the men's sports and it's a group of
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owners, like this buddies, jury jones, owner of the cowboys, report, open enore. the patriots, mark cukan, owner of the mavericks. it's a committee out re-opening ports and there's health experts on it no black people on it no women on it. given how diverse the field of play is, you actually have to go consciously make that effort to create something that looks like a country club. how sports are going to re-open. >> thought this whole thing, this is not just specifically directed at sports. just in general, in looking at the people in control and making decisions of what we do as a nation, as a black person out there, man, this is a bad time not to trust white people. because i'm serious. if you look at the governors, look at the people in administration and the white house, if you look at the scientists, man, you know what
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i'm saying, if you are black conspiracy theorist or minority who doesn't trust white males? this is a bad time not to trust them, man, because everything that's happened is in heir hands. everything. >> it's something, though. any small d democracy has to be built on a sense of trust and accountable,. >> exactly. >> and to have an absence of trust and accountability, which we do not have in this country, is trust or accountability, makes a time like now all the more dangerous and part of the explanation for why this country is in the place it's. in before we go on that tangent, i'm so sorry. i got off topic. i want to ask you specific -- we call this from ethreat lebron, the along road to freedom and i want to get into some history a little bit, and wanted to know, when you were first conscious of the person behind you, muhammad
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ali, and what his influence meant to you. >> really day one. i was born in 1963, so -- i explained my parents, affiliation with the black social movement, black panther party and operation push and operation bread basket with jesse jackson and he importance of king and the sports connection, john and tom and the olympics and the whole movement that was going on within our society. ali, i like to say i can't remember a time ever not having that man's name, his presence, and his practice, being a part of my life and being at the forefront of our lives of an example of what black pride
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exemplified, and more importantly, the way you should feel about yourself. i he never forget the first column i rote for espn i can't remember the exact line but i nut three -muhammad ali is more important than jackie robinson and a lot of people didn't get. that jackie robinson did break a color barrier and opened up the doors for black individuals to just become a part of different facets of society, not just sports, but in business and in all of the walks of life but something different about someone who makes an entire race feel about themselves. to me that goes much further than being able to almost be
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accepted by somebody else. you don't need somebody's approval to feel a certain way about yourself, and ali made us feel a way about ourselves that no other athlete or nobody on that type of global stage has ever done before. so, once again me coming up blocks away from the mosque, and my parents being who they were and black society being what it was, for the most part, ali was -- he had almost religious, and i really -- there's no way i can pin point it without it. what year did he fight liston? >> 1964. >> right, of 64. i was born in '63. i'm very vaguely -- i don't even remember cassius clay. cassius clay was foreign to me. a year after i was born, less
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than a year every was born, he is muhammad ali, and a small quote-unquote church in -- that was down the street from where i was living became the center of a global religion. i was at the foot of all of that happening, from one years old. so, to answer your question, there's never been a time in my life where i can even go back to thinking where he wasn't -- he didn't play a role. >> so, ali he sets down a marker that says if you have to be about something more than sports, and if you got -- if you have platform you have toite for something bigger than sports. do you see people like lebron james -- let's go suspect toy to lebron. do you see lebron being as a
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part of that tradition or is lebron part of something else? part of what ali built or does he build his own thing? where do you'll see lebron in that's kinnum. >> i think lebron has bit his own thing, i think lebron has used -- he used the context of the culture we're in to specifically reach audiences and make moves and send messages that wouldn't have worked 50 years ago because of various reasons. very strategic how he has moved things. think he has done his own thing thing and there's a spirit there that had ali not existed lebron would have made moved directly. lebron is very grounded in what ali stood for and what ali -- without actually saying those words, being more than an
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athlete meant, and he carried that with him but carries it very smartly and not recklessly. >> right. >> at the same time, i'm not one of those individuals that looks at lebron and expects him to be the next al limit i'm not the one who looks at michael jordan and expect him to be the next ali, looks a serena williams and say you need to be the next ali. understand this man is unique in a way that we may never see him again. the same way malcolm x was unique in a way we may never see him. the same we martin luther king was unique and me never see him im. nelson mandela, unique. gandhi. we can go down the line to individuals that we will never see again, and i think muhammad ali is in that realm of conversation and we can include that and not put that on 0
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athletes. they need to be him in order to have a social, political, racial, economic impact. that is not healthy thinking. especially from us being minorities. we have -- -- i talked about thiswe as black people specially when it comes to sports and in parts of movement moving forward of the culture we have this thing but looking and searching for absolute blackness that almost becomes harmful, like we want all of our black heroes to not just wear -- day can't have flaws. they have to do everything and human beings don't function that way. it's not like ali is flawless. it's not likely bon is flawless, not like receive temperature, serena, tiger woodses, we can find flaws in black athletes and
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black politicians and black activist, find flaws down the line. our problem is, we start to nitpick on lebron doing everything? what? does he have to do everything in why does he have to be perfect in order to be important? let him do his thing and is a long as he's not doing any harm, we can't expect him to do everything and i think we get caught up in that and i try to not be part of that, put i said it all -- i believe ali did things on such a level that we are almost think he was flawless and never made any mistakes and was the epitomy of absolute blackness and hold everybody else to what he did, and may not be another one of him and that becomes a problem.
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>> there's great quote by ken burns, the great documentary filmmaker, i'll get it wrong about he said, the greeks understood that heroes had flaws, that gods had flaws, and it's like it's a very specific part of our modern culture, we put people on pedestals and then there's whole process of them trying to tear them down. and instead of recognizing that part of what makes somebody a hero is how they negotiate the positive and negative parts of their character, and the war that is then enlisted as though two parts of their character go into combat with one another and that's a place where i think ali -- what makes him a hero is not that he was perfect but when it came time to stand up, he made the does be 12 feet tall. >> he didn't have to exactly. he welcome honor but shouldn't put that burden on somebody ems. that's what makes special.
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if we think everything will be that think it means he's not that special. i don't want to take away from the importance of this but that is -- we're talking about entertainers and michael jackson is here and stevie wonder and everybody else has to be like that. that's impossible. every now and then we get those individuals that do things on a level that the average or even the super human people cannot do but that is what separates them from everybody else, and to put the expectation on those that we consider great or carrying greatness within them, it's wrongit doesn't help. i'm not saying it's wrong but doesn't help, and as black individuals, we don't have the luxury of having so many heroes. we only get a few heroes at a time, so we need to be very careful about bringing the heroes down.
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try to make them up to a level, an impossible level because there's only a few of them that come -- you know, only a few that get accept. put that way. >> i mentioned lebron in the first place and being in that tradition because of a tweet -- he did not have to do but a tweet he sent out that has gotten a lot of play, tremendous amount of publicity, where he is speaking about the case of ahmaud arbery in georgia in february was hunted down by a former police officer and his son, white former police officer and his son, in a case that has so many echos of trayvon martin case and this is what lebron said, he said we're literally hunted every day, every time we step foot out the confident of our homes. can't even good for a damn jog, man, like wtf, man, are you
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kidding me? no, are you kidding he. >> guest: i'm sorry, ahmaud, rest in paradise and my prayers and blessings sed to you, ahmaud arbery. what does that do -- i have my own theories but what does that do when someone like lebron james actual live notices an injustice like this and amplifies it? what does that do? does it do anything? am i overthinking it make an impact. >> i think his words resonate and his actions resonate and it's sentiments resident res nat. we didn't have twitter 40 years ago, so to have an outlet where you can voice unfilteredly how you feel about certain things, without having to call a press conference, without having to have people around you, without worrying how you message will be broadcast globally. you have the power to make statements about how you feel about certain things and
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lebron has used that, i think, masterfully, this how he feels and there's a lot of people that don't feel that dish think lot of times people understand that feeling but don't agree with him having that feeling. for the fact that i put it this way, that lebron understands that there are going to be sections or of society globally that understands him feeling that way but should not publicly convey him feeling that way but still does it, you know what i'm saying? says a lot about him and what -- i'mle not going to say he's willing to risk but how important he feels it is to have his voice out there to support other voices that aren't like his that feel the same way he does, and i think he understandses that there are a
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lot of people, you'll ma may be included, i may by included, our family members other, people we don't next, random people, they're people putting out pest televisions to get -- petitions to try to find incident. that's whole other thing. the fact we have to send out petitions to try to get these two individuals arrested for murder. the fact we had -- a whole nuther story. but lebron putting out tweet like that for people that have felt that way and publicly used twitter, used facebook, used instagram, use all type of social media to put their own message out there, what lebron does in his tweet just validates they're feelings. >> that helps. i hope that it can even play a small role in what i call puncturing privilege. you have white people who are fans of lebron, but have the privilege to not care about ahmaud arbery and maybe if lebron says something it can
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puncture that privilege and they actually have to be confronted with the reality of ahmaud arbery's life and the reality of justice in this country, or absence of justice. >> i agree with you but here's why i think hope will fall on deaf ears from the white side. he used the word "we" and this is a component of being black in america. i don't want to day zay global my but being black in america that we have to deal with that white america doesn't understand how they separate us because in white america's eyes, when lebron used the word "we" they're like you're not a part of them. you don't get hunted down every day, and in all that he does but it's in a different way. so when they read his quote, the backlash will be, you're not there lebron so now your post touring, including yourself in a part of society you don't exist in anymore and we know there's no separation of black folks
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because we know huh he we are al trited regardless of what status of life we live, in but most of white america does not understand that, so i think what you're saying, that's really hopeful but for the most part i can see that falling on deaf ears because the minute he used be word "we" they're both to say he included himself in that and heels not part of what he's saying. >> lebron's house was vandalized a few years back, certain parasites of the sports page saying, oh, well, we don't really believe that happened, and it's like you decent believe it happened because you don't want to believe it happened. >> exactly. >> and shake your world view. >> and that can happen to me, that can happen to a guy next door but lebron is not -- he's not black. he's not like you all. that's the exact same belief. >> i'm not black, i'm oj. that's a quote.
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i but i wanted to ask you about a couple 0 folks. an amazing chapter but women's sports and i actually read it with my daughter. i was fantastic, called "them, too, the unrespected worth of the woman athlete" and that make med think but megan rapinoe and the way she has tried to link with tis tradition in a way that's really interesting. a way that is humble and says i'm not leading this. just -- as a gay american i want -- i know what i it's like to not have my right respected, as woman making very little on the dollar that male soccer players make issue get it and i support colin kaepernick, and i'm going to be able to try to figure out a space where i can use my platform to show something like that. >> men, let me tell you hundred -- two regret is have. i have many but these or two just off the top of my head. one, megan and i spent a day
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together in seattle, man, doing part of the -- kaepernick situation with nike and spent a day together and had really decent, long, engaging conversations across the board bought where we stood in america. kind of got a decent insight on where she privately feels about those things and made my respect her more. the problem that -- one regret i have is that i have that entire conversation that could not clued include evidence in the book. i had a consideration with lavar ball, conversation with charles barkley and a conversation with megan rap people know i could not include in the book and it bothered me, and the other regreat i have, had i thought and had i not written a book before last summer happened, i would have included megan not
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only in in them two chap childrn chapter with steve kerr and made eight three pillar chapter. >> she's a powerhouse. >> she is. and i like the fact that she is not waiverring. i love they fact she is notwaverring but in my short time of getting to spend time with her she doesn't seem like the person that would waveer or can be shifted on her beliefs because like many true, true authentic people, that try to not think about their status in america, you know, she doesn't care what the response is because as chuck v would say, god knows. because it's coming from the heart. >> because it's coming from the heart, yes.
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the lyric just ran through my head. >> exactly. >> from the heart. >> yes. >> i would be remiss also -- i mean, for goodness sakes you're a chicago guy to the core, and i want to ask you about where michael jordan fits into this discussion we're talking about, about sports, politics, activism, leveraging fame, racism,y jordan fits. first, can you tell us -- as a chicago guy, the first time you met michael jordan and what your impressions were of him. >> first time i met michael jordan? was his -- man. i shook his hand and met him, but -- i'm trying to think where i met him. i happened to be -- it's funnity. can be -- i was one of the few individuals that was at that '82 game in new orleans in the superdome. >> really. >> i went to school in university in new orleans and my
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father, because the final four what -- i don't know how my father did it but he found a way to get two tickets for my roommate and i to go to that game in the superdome. so we were like way, way, way up. but we knew about jordan, but we were asked -- i was at that game and i was pulling for -- and my roommate was pulling for north carolina. that's a different story. then he came here and played summer league basketball at chicago state university, back in the day, where just -- it was our program. michael did that. i can't remember if it was -- before or after his rookie year but i'm sure i met him at that point then. at some point during the course of his first three or four years, i think we shook hands but think pout it is that i didn't mean anything to him at the time because we hadn't seen
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started -- i was just a kid out of graduate school. getting my hustle on. so, to me honest, to really say when i shook his hand, and him like you're scoop jackson, my names scoop jackson, that probably changed upon right on the edge of his first maybe ring three or right after that. >> once you got actually know him beyond a handshake what was 'er general impression. >> i new all type of -- i was in his presence a lot. even without even meeting him and doing this, that and the other and i knew the people he hung with and how he carried himself and i respected the fact he seemed extremely authentic. like, you run into a lot of people who reach a certain amount of fame. he reached fame quickly.
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people don't understand huh fast he became fame -- famous. they want to clue that shot in north carolina as his introduction to the world but we have seen cat with a chris jennings who had the last shoulder no vessel villanova, which is jennings. >> chris jenkins. >> he that the shot to hit that. his fame didn't start there michael jordan's fame didn't really start then. his fame really, really started when he got drafted number three behind sam bowie, that is under one. then he introduced himself to the world during that olympics. that's when he really started to go global. and then his first couple of games in chicago where he really went like bananas and his kid is real, and when you rarely get
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your first week of your professional clear do you make the cover of sports illustrate. >> a star is born, remember i remember the cover. >> that's when it started to hit. for us is was like, oh, my god, this dude -- in chicago he became special extremely, extremely quick. that being said, being around him, and people that i grew up with that were around him -- michael really induced himself and didn't separate himself from the hood. i'm a black dude from carolina. i'm not -- i'm doing whatever the brothers do in chicago do. hanging with quinten daley, he's hanging with rod higgins. rod higgins was his boy. back in the day. that was back in the day where there was no real like true celebrity kind of split. the velvet rope had not been invented yet. when you went to places leak we idea to go to, like the charlie
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club, when the hot black club back in the day. mike could be there, juanita, the bulls would be there and you irintermingle. there's not a v.i.p. section. didn't roll like that go to the street and hang out. everybody walked around and got their party on and he walked up. michael be out there. the bulls out there. just black -- they just be out, everybody be kicking it, and mike, for being as famous as he was and how quick he came, he never really separated himself. never created a velvet rope like that. so, gained appreciation for that. we could have seen so easily, y'all do your thing, not being from chicago, me being mike jordan. i ain't from you. i don't get down with you. that's not how we roll. i'm going to roll a different way. never, ever, ever did that. >> it's interesting you say
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that. brings me to the last dance. and the last dance gives the impression -- he even tells stories about it, that those early years, he was just like mr. home body, not doing anything, and he would walk into the hotel room and see some of the folks you mentioned, and he was, like, walked in and then turned around and walked right out because it was too much of a scene for him and he was too busy think can about his craft and -- >> he wasn't a nerd. he still hang about out but they -- let's be real. that is not his -- a lot of stuff going on in professional sports anyway. don't have me bring up the new york mets. >> the team growing up. >> right. my team, too, so we can't think it was just the bulls players or just the bulls team. i'm pretty sure the phoenix suns, the nets, down the line,
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we get the -- the whole career and you don't -- that was going on in professional sports at the time and what hey consider doing sometimes was a little extra for mike. so michael would -- it wasn't like he was a herd. want just sitting up ironing his shorts. he would get out and do things and kick it every night, and was part of whatever was going on and always been that way but went from being a part of what was going on to setting settinge standard for what was going on. >> that brings me to the last dance. i've got some issues -- i've been very entertained by last dance, very b tear and inin the context of coronavirus, very grateful to have something to look forward. to i have some real issues with it, though, and some problems with it, enumerate what thoseert but i want to ask you thundershower thoughts about it.
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>> i feel the exact same way. head to separate journalism from fame when i watch that and separate myself from being someone who was part of that last season and seasons lead up to that has season-being around that team and knowing the participants the with a i knew them issue have to find a way so separate that and just become a fan of the doc are you series and enjoy it for what it is and the narrative, not necessarily trying to shape but the narrative they're trial to tell, the purpose of this film. so, i have found a way to be able to do that, and keep the other side of things where i find flaws in it, to the side and i don't want to be that cantankerous, old, getting old, man that makes -- has a problem with everything. we have to enjoy things for what they and are what they're trying to do in the last dance is only trying to tell a story, and
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actuality of what that last season was for them as a team. it's not a documentary on michael jordan's life. it's not a documentary on whatever else we want to make it about. it's literally about that -- it uses different parts to bring back that story. so i have to keep reminding myself, why are they going teacher sneer that's not a part of what this is about. so i have to keep in mind and i found way to do that and still enjoy it. >> you used one example, i was upset about the absence of mentioning another hay market books author, mr. craig hodges no mention of craig and when they're doing the flashbacks and especially when they were talking about jordan and politics, craig hodges was such unique figurer in early 90s and seeing himself in that kind of ali tradition of saying i'm going to use this platform to try to do something, and craig
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is not in the script. >> and here's the thing. agree with you and i love craig more than like 99% of the athletes that are walking the face of the earth right now. but my takeaway from that is, one, he wasn't part of that final team, and everything is built around that final team. two, john harper doesn't get mentioned and he's a big part of that. i can't go and expect craig who wasn't part of the team to be mentioned or -- >> give me some in the flashback when they talk put the 9-90 season, 90-91. >> once again auction of to the soaps connected to what is current in the story telling. >> yeah. >> i'm not giving it's pass. just trying to put it connected. i'm not dish understand even if it is wrong, why someone like craig is not included because i'm looking at people that-under currently on the team that are
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not included, and it tells the story what the final season was like and i'm being fair about all of this. the fact they haven't done really anything, really, outside of what michael and scotty did, they're not talk but tony and he is important to this squad. a couple years before he was sixth man of the year. so he goes almost unmentioned. so, i don't take the craig thing as personal. i'm looking at people who are current lay part of the team and i know how big of a role ron harper played from a basketball statement and getting the rings and him not get a mention in cleveland? come on, man. >> and i want to -- we have some questions piling up that folks have for you. i would be remills if i didn't ask you what your thoughts were
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in this continuum of people you who use sport, your thoughted about colin kaepernick and i guess i want to phrase the question in two parts. one, what werure thoughted about colin kaepernick back in august 2016 when he first took the knee and what are your thoughts now? >> my first thought and i kind of address it in the book, this is something he did silently and something he necessarily didn't want to good public. we, members of the media, brought that public. he took on a burden and a movement that he never asked for. and the fact he stayed true to that, without saying that, hey, hey, i didn't ask for this. i appreciate he didn't pack beau. he was informant trying to bring attention to himself. he was just doing him. that's it. and the spotlight fell on him but he never shied away from the spotlight so i gained a certain
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appreciation on that. moving forward, i personally am glad that he never got a chance -- i'm saying chance very loosely -- let me change that word. he never got the opportunity to enter back into the nfl. i never wanted him after this entire episode to get back to the nfl so the whole thing but roger goodell and other individuals trying to create an opportunity for him to showcase to get back in, what he did, i'm cool with, put i were he would have said no from the very beginning, and i understand how much football means to hem but what he has been through and he way he has been treat i look at the bigger picture and i'm like don't give them the luxury of being able to say, we did this. we did this for you. we let you back. in don't give
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them that. go out of the this thing as a martyr. i never wanted him to give any nfl owners or the league itself an out in this entire story. i'm glad that what happened with him attempting to get back and -- i'm glad he is not back in the nfl and hope he never gets a chance to go back in the nfl. if really do. >> it's interesting. not to self-plug or anything, but i -- >> self plug. >> i've again quarantined and work on this book i have an idea called the kaepernick effect and interviewing high school, middle school and college kids who took a knee and i don't think people realize how deep it got in really small communities. got no attention. death thefts leveled at-year-old kid, people showing up in confederate flags and guns because a cheerleader takes a
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knee in upstate new york. so many toward people were influenced by this one gesture because they felt they had to do something but didn't know what something was and then they see it and say, i can do that. >> here's the this dave and it's all well and good, but a brother can't take a jog in georgia without getting hunted down and without us having to sign a petition to get an investigation and get the people arrested. so you can -- always taking a knee is symbolic and cute but that doesn't change the fact of what collin kneeled for in the binge and the situation is what we are living in right now it what this is about and yet we're still here. >> you're right, and shoutout to the brave people both in georgia and in indianapolis where a young man named shawn reid was guesses couple. that irprotest in the middle of pandemic, wearing masks, trying stay six feet apart and --
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forced out of theirs house to do this and it's not going to get a tenth of the coverage of the confederate waving gun toting michigan protesters or anything like that. and he's are folks ribsing their health because they feel like they have no choice but to be heard. it's really something. >> yes, it is. >> let me ask you some questions. >> yes, sir. >> some great questions. i get a run through these billy jones questions because he's get some great ones. which book has changed the wail you thought the most? >> alex hailey's book, not roots but the book he did with -- the his interviews. he interviewed a lot of the prominent socially responsible individuals in america during the time with playboy magazine, and i was -- people said they
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read playboy for whatever but alex hailey was that writer because he interviewed jfk, interviewed malcolm kansas, martin luther king, interviewed -- meat of fact his interview in playboy magazine started with -- a spring board to malcolm x's autobiography but all the put all this interviews in playboy magazine in a collective and i think it's called, alex hailey the interviews, and i read them as i was coming up independently. you know as a writer, we need things collectively, consolidated as opposed to spread over years, changes the entire digestion of what you just read. it's kind of like listening to somebody's career musically over the course of their entire career and then getting that box set and listening to the box set in one setting. it changes everything so the one book to answer that question,
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was alex hailey's playboy interview. that changed everything for me as a grown individual. >> wow, great answer. so interesting because so many people when they're asked that question say, autobiography of malcolm x and when you said alex hailey it thought that's where you start but you were much more expansive. >> everybody in there and his -- as a journalist his questions -- not only his question-asking but what he was able -- the answers he was able to get out of these individuals that nobody was able to get. it was amazing to me to read all that. what i learned about those people and what i learned but journalism and what i learned about questioning and and what i learned about like not interviewing people but holding conversations. all of that came from that book. >> brilliant. another question, i got to go through my billy jones
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questions. he is referencing directly chapter 12 in the game is not a game, which is such a good book. the chapter is called the number in numbers and it's -- the numb in numbers and the a critique of analytics and billy says i get your point put do you feel that analytics takes away the soul, spirit, emotion and intensity from the game? >> i think it does from a professional level and i understand when we're dealing with professional sport -- and i'm including college sports because they are professional prognoses as some point of sports because of the money engine rates to be foolish to look at them as anything but professional. but i do think at some point takes away from the freedom that sports gives on a professional level because the professional level of sports is about winning. it's a winning business. so, i understand that but i do
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feel at this point in time, because of how important and how relevant analytics has been, not just from a consumer standpoint but from a functional standpoint as far as coaches and scouts and video, and execution, that there are -- there's a component that has soft ena lot of the creativity of freedom we have allowed ourselves to fall in love with when it comes to sports and from the athlete directly, doing things as a reaction as opposed to just a thought. so, yes, i do believe that. and once again, i've never said that analytics is all wrong. i said all analytics are wrong. there's room for both of these to be coexisting, in
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professional sports at this period of time but seems to be all on one -- it's all or nothing. and i'm looking at the role sports has played, especially for african-americans and black individuals in america and what that means beyond just the functionality of supports on the field of play or on the court, and how that including analytics and giving so much power takes away from everything sports has meant to us. or done for us. >> yeah. howard bryant has a great piece up, i put itman twitter feefield where the talk notice period of coronavirus -- this was published today -- has had him watching a lot of classic games, and had him think thinking it was consecutive the way it was broadcast, the way it was brought to you, the way people played, without being so hung up
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on those front office details of analytics. i think it's very interesting, a lot of analytic is find fascinating. the worst part is it puts the viewer in the position of thinking they're a front office person, and it puts the broadcast are like they're some front office person crunching the numbers incities of just immersing yourself in the joy of play. >> exactly. now, let's take that back and how do you think that fakes fake do affects the athletes on the field if they keep -- if they keep getting this information poured into this, this the way it needs to happen? >> oh, wildly. >> right. >> better jack up 4030s a game or we -- breaks down the an littal break town. >> i'm not going to take this shot because it's going affect my percentages. it's going bring down this. this is not -- maybe a -- i'm
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being taught this is not a good shot, and i -- the one thing tried to do in that chapter is separate basketball from all the other sports that use analytics because i think basketball, and i'll include socker in this -- are such immediate reactionsary sports it's hard to include that type of data as being at the forefront how the sport can function and move. baseball is extremely strategic and basically built off statistics. football is extremely strategic, and less built off of data the way baseball is but straightic in movement and plays. basketball and like i said soccer, they -- you do what the defense gives you, you react to what is right in front of you, and it doesn't lend itself for you to think numbers and four or
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five plays or movements ahead of time in order to make this to go work 0 certain way because this the way i'm taught it's supposed to work, from a video coward coordinator assistant coach who wants this dat executed. it just doesn't lend-to-that the with a it -- basketball and soccer don't lend itself to an analytic platform the way other sports can. so in the chapter i specifically used basketball, specifically and then how we apply analytics to tell stories and we leave so much out of when we're stressing certain data or why certain things happened. >> well put indeed. and the one last question here is, if you had the power to change the sports interest
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entertainment industry, you have 24 hours, what do you do? >> put more women sports on. that's all. i real request think that's a problem and i think we -- in our male -- our toxic male dominated society, especially at the expense of those who control sports, especially the media side of sports, we miss out on not only just the performance of what women do but the greatness that women bring to the table when it comes to competition. so i would find a way to highlight that a lot more and make it become normal instead of like, something that is ancillary. >> there's a great sports writer, lindsey gibbs, her columnedder in the headline of power plays and she had this argument that said, how it would change the sports world for the
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better if when sports come back, you give women sports just like a week before men's sports just come trampling in. just a week. so everybody who is starved for sports can tune in and see, all these amazing athletes, soccer, all of it, and just imbibe it. take it in, see it for what it is. >> here's the thing. then you'll have a black history month all over again. what is that doing? they just deserve to -- be nice to use the week as an introduction and then continue that and make it just normal. just make it part of the regular influx of how we digest sports in this country, and we all talk but this equality and diversity and stuff but when 80% of the sport wisdom watch are being told to watch are being --
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having the ability to watch is male sports and women represent much smaller, 2% of that, that's not equality. you know what i'm saying? so it's -- we're missing out on a lot. >> we are. no doubt. and as someone who lives in d.c. and got to see the washington mystics roll to a championship, it was a lot of fun. >> elean na and chrisy toll her. >> people would consciously opt out of having fun. just so maddening to me some speaks to the sexism of which you're talking about. >> i kind of deal with this in the book. we also don't -- those who champion women's sports and understand the importance of women lazy sports we're still not doing our part on our regular normal basis by incorporating this into what we do on a regular by says, and i want the wnba finals but i wasn't having a bun of the
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fellas coming over and say we need to get together as if i it what's nba final. i'm not watching wimbledon or the u.s. women's songer team the same way i watch u.s. men's basketball team and my engagement and, like, not just me personal but the engagement, let's good to bar and watch this. i'm not rallying like we do around a football game. let's go the bar and watch the chiefs mail the rams. let's do that. but why not? why wouldn't we do that -- white aren't re doing that when comunicate to the wnba finals? dave, let's go to bar and go watch this game and when get to the bar and demand though show it on the screen. so even if we can't be, still not doing it for the regular basis, which is considered our normal when county toms thing wed defor male sports. we're just as bad as everybody else.
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>> we all have to think of ways we can correct our approach to the purposes of promoting what is i think really important, i think you're absolutely right about that. packy has an interesting question. how useful is the w.e.b. dubois slick booker t washington, personal verse economic, activism, to move against racism. how useful is that it dem plat to understand the he john james issue michael jordan duality? >> that's a great question. i think we're living in a day and age right now where at some point you need both. dough abuse -- dubois was spectacular talk about the duality blacks and african-american thieves knives when he talked bet the souls of black folk in 1903. he broke that down in a way that
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still is prom meant to this day and have to function with. mr. washington was strictly did a lot of what he was doing on the economic side of what black people have to amass in order to find some type of leverage in this country and he had a view of how important economic was in america. i look at both of them and understand the root of what they were getting at and the roles they played today. but i don't hold, once again, each individual accountable to do everything. in those roles. i don't ask michael jordan to be as socially outspoken as lebron james while he is handling things economically for black individuals that no other fortune 100 no other fortune 500 no other franchise in sports is doing when it comes to expiring
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placing black expectsives in roles that black people weren't looked and the power of having the ownership and what i means to at least see a black male in america amass not only a billion dollars but becoming a billionaire in a society and a country that economics is first and foremost. i understand the power that actually has. because guess what? take him out of that conversation, and where are we? we look at sports as black individuals that role is play in emancipating emancipating and liberating us and normalizing news white america. look at the role that sports as played in normalizing black individuals. i'm not trying be flippant or funny, but, hell, before jack johnson and joe louis we were still considered lower human beings. they gave us sports gave black people in this country he other
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two-fifths you've keep that in mind and one of the only three black billionaires, we have in this country, is somebody who didded through sports. so if you take that speak out of this conversation, what role does sports really have for us in america without somebody a' massing some type of ownership, some time of billionaire status? i understand the importance of that so i'm not going to look at mike to be a social activist. i understand the role he plays and i understand the roll he plays in giving lebron a path to follow he didn't have to follow the same path but can follow part her to path andtle be socially conscious and put out messages that -- now at the same time i'm not expecting lebron james to be craig
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hodges. i think it goes back to what i was saying about absolute blackness. what due boys and washington were talking bow back in the day we have existing right now but i see a balancing act going on across the board, where everything they spoke about is in part of the individual's at the top hoff at the food from hand county ymca statement in both socialism and economics. >> interesting. interesting indeed. i've had my critiques of jordan over the years but every time people ask about him speaking out i always want to ask, are you speaking out? and why do we ask of athletes what we don't and of yourselves. >> exactly. it is the superman syndrome where you expect somebody to come down from planet awesome to lead the way and some of that come out people's desperation to
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see social change and comes from a misreading of history. the 1950s and 60s don't happen, if malcolm x doesn't happen, we're not talking about muhammad al limp you don't have that poster behind you. they're a function of their times and the time in which they go that process. >> let's be honest, dave, we have been through this, we weren't existing maybe starting eight or nine years ago, maybe further back, maybe ten, but late say nine years where there seemed to be a large generation of apathy. when it came to athletes and them using their voice to speak their pain and a lost it could have been connected to economics or the economics that wouldn't be afforded to them had they used their voice to say something, or wasn't able to feel a certain way, and when we
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deal with black america during that time period, the post ali, pre-miya moor. generation of athletics, where what aim going to be charged with if die say something but here's the thing -- if i do say something but as i'm an athlete feeding off society. society is not saying anything there was no quote-unquote black power militant political socially active movement going on in society as it pertained to minorities the same way it was with in the seven inside. the 80s and 90s and the quarrel 2000s there was no quote-unquote movement. ...
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that is part of labor discipline. that is the thing. he has so much more value to the nfl as a ghost story that he did as a player. it was a form of labor and discipline. >> is a spiral of silence. you say something that society. it has the power to spiral you into silence. we've seen many athletes go through that their onset and island by themselves at the time that they didn't from the media standpoint basically
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from the is a standpoint. we are able to make them seem like they were not the rule. they were not the norm. their voices became quieter and quieter because we were also instructed not to rally around them. there was no colonization. they want to say something. they will rally around it. they have the mini movement that existed that he was going to be able to find support rick or less of the direction that the media wanted to take
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the story. it is about being able to out put those ideas through social media. against bush and the war. all of these emotions and i said to them when you speak out about this. people want to hear your voice. to be ever looked at the sports media. there are not a lot of people i can talk too. what is the point of talking to them if i'm just gonna get crushed to do it. even if they have individuals in sports. we were going to find it together. exactly. i remember you wrote an article a long time ago about being in a role with other journalists in you being the only one who had editorial powers.
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made a real strong impression on me as a lungs -- young person. you're the only one that actually gets to see what you write. it is a good thing for you but for me it's a sad thing because you look around the room and you see those individuals in places like apparently you should want to go. do i really want to go there and what is the true definition of power. where you take it that is a cool part. i just thought the column was cool. i remember it 20 years later.
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it was the writing that stayed with me. that's i'm trying to do. it relates to so much we've been talking about. or is it just on the dl. this is so dependent on the movement in the cases that are going on outside the leak. i think your neck in the sea much if the nfl exists in a vacuum but if we start seeing it. if we start to see in these cases.
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i think there is a pipeline that now exist between the peoples and the players that did not exist before. it's something you could see reviving again. it is not going to raise revive itself in a vacuum. here's my thing. the thing i look at. and it happened with the backyard. if they do anything. at the petition doesn't get signed. it's not dead. in the nfl. that's basically what they're trying to call to action.
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what is going on. that's not even an issue with us. it was about injustice. that the people of color specifically black people at the hands of police officers. in this case it's those who had guns. or as things that happen to us because we are black that is what this entire movement was all about. because it happened inside confines of the nfl. he became an nfl issue. where colin and ed reed may have been trained to voice
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trying to voice something louder outside the nfl i think their mission was to see if anybody inside the nfl heard them. and once again, let's use our current situation if a situation goes on with the falcons contributes in some way and uses his voice the atlanta falcons are an organization and they will not stand for this. if they put the field on the petition you'd be able to knock me over with a feather if that happened. i feel like the nfl is almost distinct. i think there is an entrenched soul of racism in the national football league because in
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part of the sport you are looking at black bodies like they are at home. and then that filters the way out. there are only three black coaches in the football league. that was the a crisis .20 years ago. and it's three again. in the amount of executives i think even lower than three at this point. and obviously we talked about there being no ownership. it is hard to separate the absence of representation with how the players are treated on the field. and how to dispose of late they are treated in the game. they were held by black individuals in the game. and how disposable they have really become in football.
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and that could be part of my argument towards the power and analytics. you're basically just exercising the right to eliminate an entire roll of football. with 99 percent of those players in black. have these thoughts. that is real talk right there. the black athletes. in the clearing and the goldmine.
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get ready. you make a good point. for me as a black individual wish and just stop should just stop at the coaches situation. there are some the other roles. we are qualified for. and should be prominent in the intellect in the sport. that we are not even a part of. i just don't want the competition to stop the coaches. when there are 11 black coaches instead of three and everything's on all good. it's the same thing i said
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about: cap her neck. for that part of the reason they never wanted to go back. there would be the sole coup by a situation where he is back in the leak everything is all good there were still 29 others that didn't. jamal health had that great line. cap next social justice award as if nothing ever happened. if we do it will they fall for it. we actually have a request from someone that clearly listens to you. we are just about at the end
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of time. i always ask you what kind of music you are listening to it these days because you have such a mind for music i was hoping you could share with us what is getting you through the quarantine. i had been taking deep dives into the dj set basically spends global trial. i had been doing that for the last couple years. i have gone the mixed cloud for those across the world. they are basically going to the african brutal tribal. there had been a plethora of those. every day it is a different journey trying to lead through health music through the court
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outside of that though. did you realize that they put out something for the last chance. i had been going through the playlist that associates themselves with the docket series. it is ridiculously dope. i have it on spot if i. fantastic. i could listen to black sheep all day. the beastie boys up in there. the cure ration is really dope. i think it's maybe 45 songs.
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that has been my last two days. to make it sounds good to me. the game is not a game. any other things you want to say. not about the book. i think it speaks for itself. nineteen years in the making. >> i want to say something about the book. we will have such a better sports world if people take the time to read this and listen to what they're trying to say. >> for that niece and nephew that you have out there. who is into sports. buy a copy for yourself. and given white people that you care about and love. it's an act of love to share this book. that is my hope. that's all you can help with.
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thank you so much for taking the time. can i get one shot out before we go. give yourself out. i'm wearing my temple had to today was their graduation from temple university. on this day celebrating the graduation. i at least want to get them a shout out because finishing college is a big deal and i'm proud of both of them. >> wow. in the atmosphere. you know how proud fathers are, were up there.
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i just want to remind folks about two upcoming events. they would host another chicago person. with how we radically reimagine that. if you've never seen yves ewing may 14 you want to be there. immigrant justice. think you before we close i want to remind people if you're in a position to make a donation no matter how small. from all over this world we hope to see you soon. think you'd scoop -- think you scoop. you were are able to do this.
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i really appreciate it. peace out everybody. here some of the is some of the current best-selling nonfiction books. samantha power on her life and career. the exam in the science behind why we make a bad decision. it is a splendid in the bile. with the leadership between the london blitz. the best-selling nonfiction books according to pasadena
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california bookstore is michelle obama's memoir becoming. the best-selling book of 2018. some of them have appeared on book tv and you can watch them online and book they are damaging america's democracy. what we had was much more i can. then the two-party the two-party democracy that we have now. it is truly a radical. they didn't like parties. the two-party system.
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i read madison federalist ten. you want to have a democracy so that no group feels like it is going to be in the permanent minority. and no group is going to have the permanent majority. and cook -- and click on the afterwards page. i want to welcome everyone and please note that the audio of today's call will be posted on the website.


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