tv Oral Histories American War Veterans CSPAN December 27, 2021 8:01pm-9:01pm EST
on. we were too busy paying attention to what we were doing but suddenly i didn't know what was going on, i had my back and could come up to a recent dreams -- marines around me started jumped up and firing their weapons into the air, screaming and yelling. i really thought everybody had lost their minds, couldn't figure out what was going on and then i caught on because i looked and there was a lorry on top so i did the same dumb thing they were doing, firing a weapon up in the air and jumping and screaming. i was carrying a weapon. the pistol i carried on my hip, i couldn't hit anything with
that. as soon as i got a sore on the beach, and i found a rifle, i grabbed the rifle. i didn't want one of those things. it was as far as i was concerned so i grabbed in one so i jumped up and started firing in the air and screaming like everybody else. i wondered how many marines we lost. we saw old glory up there but it changed the whole attitude of the whole thing. it did something to us and the captain, a great number of his marines called for a meeting of all mcas and officers, there were a couple officers left but he call the meeting and being a
corporal with these individuals i was elected as an in co but we had people before this thing was over we had sergeants acting as ceos, anybody doing anything that you can get them to do so i went out to meet with the ncos and another sergeant in this shell crater and the captain was at the bottom of the whole and i can remember him very frustrated, didn't know what to do, he was looking for ideas. how do we do this? what do we do? make progress and not get people killed? he was asking others for ideas.
he looked at me, i don't know. somebody else told me they looked at me and said do you think you can knock some of those pillboxes out? i had no idea but some of the guys in the whole said i will try. i guess that was a volunteer. he said that will give you something, two out of four. there instructions were to protect me. i started calling for the pillboxes. a fellow who was not part of my outfit didn't do anything. he was a 6-foot one guy. i grabbed him as i went by and told him to bring a poll charge. we had poll chargers all fixed up. once we burned the pillbox out,
to get used to the kid, so he came with me and we got in the shell crater. the japanese had cleaned these pillboxes that were 12 or 15 inches deep, hollowed out trenches and called from one to the other. so they put the pillbox together. they had holes, they put oil drums in the ground with the wooden top of it. these little fellows, 4 foot 2, 4 foot 5, get down in that wheeled from, didn't know it existed. and then back in the whole.
beside you, you drop over dead and you don't know shot him. but then rolling over that thing would suck the oxygen out of that drum. he is gone. we start out of this shell crater to advance toward one of those tracks, hold the ground and the pillbox. as we got to the top, maybe he got frustrated or mad or whatever, i am still on my billy. i will crawl with that thing. i'm not going to stand up. he acts like he is going to run toward it and when it hit it hit the side of his helmet at about this point. we had steel helmets.
pots, we called them. inside was a fiber liner and the bullet penetrated the helmet right between the liner and the helmet and went all the way around and when it did, it put his head around like that and through him back into the shell crater. he was getting ready to go someplace and i called back down where he was but i couldn't see any blood or anything. his helmet was still on. i should command kept yelling are you all right? are you hurt? finally he puts up his eyeballs, rolled around for a little while and got focused and he said i am all right. he took the helmet off.
i don't know if he's living today or not but i bet he's got the helmet. we finally got close to that pillbox but i got the guy in the whole but just a short version, crawled on to the fifth officer and he had an and will stuck out the aperture. and i could remember crawling toward the pillbox and he is off to my right running this way with the pillbox over here and i'm going to try to get close enough to get the flame in there. and i can remember that ambush bullet off of my air tank on my back hit him and don't know why
i wasn't smart enough to figure out, he couldn't get me if i went backwards so i called and he only had so much out of the aperture. i arrived in the third wave. i got in at 8:00 and by that time, the fighting in the fortifications had been taken place so the only thing i worried about was artillery. i only lost one man on the beach and he was shot between the eyes by a sniper. i lost half my head -- half of my men.
that concerns me about the media when they show d-day they talk about omaha and the carnage that was there which it certainly was but they make it look like we didn't have any difficulty. the fourth division lost 197 men on the beach on d-day but the next day when we attacked, we lost 50% of our men in three or four days, the second day i lost eight. it was our d-day, it was on the second day. we had to go through that water. the exits weren't all open and due to the fact we all landed
where we were supposed to, exit 3 was really crowded so the 20 second infantry in the twelfth the cam behind us walked through, it took 7 hours to walk through that water and we went up the road and spread out and made the skirmish line and waited until morning. i was surprised it didn't get dark until 11:00 at night so we dug our holes and the next day we jumped off to attack. our third battalion police had infantry with more difficulty than the first two because they were a part of the first waves and their job with the eighth
infantry was the eighth infantry, our third battalion must hit and go up the beach and take out the fortifications there. a week or two. there was a whole extension of the fortification line that ran from utah beach to the glenville ridge and it took us about three weeks to get through one fortification after another. that is also where several navy ships that were sunk had difficulty. only two of them. some by german fire but the mines were terrible, there was a good dozen navy ships that
were destroyed in utah beach, i put that in my new book, they got credit for what they had done. >> what was your assignment or objective on the first day on d-day? >> what we didn't have to do, the air force, the paratroopers had done that so we bypassed them. the second task was to attack on d-day. didn't quite reach our objective. we achieved our position.
>> can you tell me a little more about the fighting the next day? >> we are already in that, very difficult fighting and the germans would sit back and all the avenues approach those fortifications, they were mapped and fire arrangements have been made so waiting to come and over the hedge road to the sides of them and our standard way of fighting was we would have our artillery fire for 15 minutes to an hour on positions but the germans
getting into the hedge rows, was hard to get to it. hopefully the d 47s, and divebomb and strafe their 50 caliber machine guns and as soon as that lifted we pushoff. as soon as that lifted the germans would come out of the whole waiting for you and when we get to the fortifications, radios connected with each other. they also had backdoor where they swing out to the side without your knowing it. that was really tough. the first day we get on top,
the fellow, the german commander, he knew what was going to happen so he went back to fire on us when we were on top. we thought it was friendly fire and we had to retreat. the next day we had to do the job all over again and this time they did get troops out the door on the side, we had to withdraw that day, we lost a lot of men but didn't take it and the third day we got in and the battalion off the beach and
behind them, once you get behind these fortifications you can do your thing in germany. the way to pin them down, a tank destroyer behind them sticking a 9 millimeter gun through the aperture and they come out but we were doing these flamethrowers. 75 yards, got behind and gave it some scores and nothing happened. about to give up and all of a sudden he heard a bank and
flash. the gas forgotten inside. and blue it up. they came out fast after that. >> the us elements are here in some strength in the south korean army's third and capital divisions. the tenth week of the korean war, the fighting on all fronts has reached a peak of fury. although at this time military spokesman i mentioned offensively moves, it does not appear optimistic. >> commander colonel mott gave us a speech gathering up, our objective, was currently occupied by 300 gorillas. some time whether it was before or after we went to several
truckloads of prickly badly shot up korean militias and i understood there had been a problem up ahead but i didn't know what kind of problem because i wasn't conversant in the language and wasn't briefed, being a private. we continued on and started marching from that point on. we weren't in trucks anymore but were marching and had two columns extending a mile and a half to two miles. we went ten steps apart and i was in reserve company. we were bringing up the rear, lieutenant alexander macron was in charge. it was a little after 8:00, a
8:45, we were a couple miles east already and, machine gun fire and rifle fire, we knew there was a contact ahead and didn't know what to expect so we arrived on the scene, 30 minutes later up the winding hill over the crest of the hill i could see the path about half a mile ahead going into shinjuku or down into hey jong and down to the right, went across a rice patty along the foot of a hill we will call the north mountain or north hill, the north koreans were entrenched and ready for it. then further, another 400 yards
up through a pass. when i came around the hill, i saw three burning vehicles, one at the pass and two more, 300 or 400 yards down the road toward our direction and saw another one burning that i got distracted from but turned out to be an orange colored jeep which was our air to ground burning on the corner of the road not far from where general chaise's and monument is. we were continuing down the hill, we received mortar fire on the hill, we saw 10 or 12, a couple of salvos, five rounds each of mortar rounds.
two squad members in my unit and pretty badly wounded. i ran to help them and do what i could. when i got down there, one whose entrails were blown out and his stomach, his guts were showing and the other had a shoulder and chest wound and they were screaming loudly and i didn't know what to do in the company commander told me to let the medics handle it. it is hard to not be able to help somebody but if i moved him i would hurt them more so i went to the position, medics picked him up, and - this is
july 27th, july 27th, started at 8:45 in the morning but we could hear 8:45. >> this belongs - >> at that time i was in the 20 ninth infantry and this is kind of a blow by blow account. it took a day from get from ginger you to where we were in hey jong. it wasn't one night, the next morning, the 20 sixth, we camped out in the 20 seventh we went in to take haydon. >> such a vivid memory. >> i sleep with it every night and wake up with it every morning. i used to wake up at 2:30 in the morning a same old thing carrying grenades and rifle going up the hill, the same hill trying to rescue medics.
all these koreans shooting at me and not shooting at them and jim and tony, kind of bedlam. i would wake up and try to figure out -- >> you have ptsd? >> very bad case of it and i didn't know it. another sad story. when i came back, i didn't know what i wanted to do. when i got back to japan i walked the streets, so tired i dropped, looking for somebody who shared my experience. i didn't know why i did that. when i came home, i to go to school and do something different, go to law school and took a bunch of tests through the veterans administration. you must of had a terrible childhood. why?
he said you are angry, you have low self-esteem, you're very aggressive, you are suicidal, all this and that. i had a very happy childhood, why would you think that? i said i had all the range and open space i did to roll around in. i had brothers and sisters and good parents and i was happy. the only thing that happened that was upsetting in my life was going to war in korea and seeing all my friends killed and i feel real guilty about it. i could have or should have done something more. i tried to go back and help, learned what to do and had to go back and they restrained me and i felt guilty about it. another time i felt when --
when a guy actually died he said tell mom and dad i will be all right, that i love them and he died and i didn't know who he was. >> where did you go? they were taken out again. and chased off that hill and back through change you i left. >> the delta country of south vietnam is a -- against vietcong forces in the area. helicopters of the thirteenth aviation battalion provide direct air support transporting the men to their destinations.
the battle zone is carefully observed. [gunfire] >> and early april of 65 i was on the plane to vietnam and it took a couple days, and got on a c 123 milk run flight stopping every town and every base in vietnam and got to detonating and i was in the war. i was in the war so quick i had not even gotten to the black
market to buy fatigues, we have a picture of myself, the first combat operation. i got to da nang and kept my clothing in a samsonite suitcase. and this very excited, dark skinned gentleman ran up and said you are mister galloway and i said yes. i am a upi photographer, you come with me as i said what about my suitcase? he said a rude thing about my suitcase and put it in the aerial squadron terminal and dragged me to a c 130 and i didn't know where we were going
and we flew to another city and we got off and if you've ever seen somebody stick a stick in an actual it was like that. people were going every which way and there was a sense of panic in the air on this little airstrip. henry ran to a helicopter and talked to this guy and he waved at me as i got on this helicopter with him. here we are, don't know where we are leaving for i don't know where too. we flew out 10 minutes on this marine ch 34 helicopter which is korean war vintage. ..
we landed on top of that hill and the guy shut the chopper off and there was dead silence. we got out and i looked around and there were probably 200, they didn't have time, they were just little indentations and there was a man lying in each one like he was holding a rifle except there was no rifle and man was dead. they were all dead. they were overrun by the vietnam. what we were doing is the chief of the helicopter needed help.
we had to go man-to-man until we found the two american advisers and recovered their bodies and brought them back to the helicopter and brought them home and that's the only reason that guy but is on the helicopter, he needed help carry the bodies and it was a shock. a total shock. to that moment, my knowledge of war was limited to john wayne movies for god sakes. now i saw the reality of it, i saw 200 dead vietnamese and two dead americans and i looked at their faces and i carried their bodies and i looked at them all the base and they didn't look
like john wayne to me. , they turned the camera off and you're okay but not in the war, you are still dead. we got back to that town, that base and it was getting near dark and he told me, he said they are so scared, all the americans leave at night and fly back but if we stay the night, we'll get start early in the morning and will be ahead of the ap. i said sounds good to me. we went over to spend the night at the advisor compound, we went to that compound and there was a tall skinny, totally exhausted
army captain standing at the gate and he said i'm glad you decided to stay here tonight. we've been on 24/7 alert for five days and i need some sleep and you are going to guard the base tonight. okay. they had to switch, and one arm switchboard and they connect me through to the bureau in saigon and i'm dictating a story when they started watering the place. i'm underneath the switchboard dictating and the guy at the other end said what's that noise? i said they are shooting at us, you idiot. [laughter] it was my introduction to the vietnam war and that night,
already the first shift for three hours and then it was my turn. the guy gave us an m2 grease gun, 45 caliber machine gun and my turn, i'm out there scared to death. i'm in this bunker a split that out right up the road. while, during my shift, the enemy attacked the south vietnamese compound, commanders compound across the little road. they hit us with satchel charges blowing it up and i figured we were next. finally after the longest night of my life, there's a little light, the sun is going to come up in a minute and i've made it. i looked and down the road comes a vietnamese guy on a bicycle
was a big package on the front on his handlebars and i checked around in that machine gun and i've got it right on him and i'm about to blow his gizzard out when the captain hits me on the shoulder and says son, if you shoot that man, you're going to have to cook our breakfast. [laughter] he was the cook. our breakfast was on his handlebars. i tell you, you can't make stuff like that up. >> what's, one of the most frightening things that happened to me was the january 6 date, we talked about being commissioned but the next year, 1971 and the
d.c. set about a mile from the hospital, of course i'm on night duty, every time we were hit i was on night duty. i don't know why but that's the way it happened. it was the first time i remember any enemy activity near us i've been in country about a month and a half and i was walking work in getting a little complacent about time because i was thinking this is a long tour and i thought sometimes things are slow, you didn't work as hard. i was thinking this isn't too bad, got ten and a half more months and that night we got hit. 2:00 a.m. and i had just taken my last patient from the recovery room into icu and i said i will be right back, i'm
just going to straighten up and all of a sudden, the loudest explosion i ever remember and i thought the mortar hit the building next to our hospital which is where the doctors were. i was so scared i hid under the metal desk making oh my god, we are being overrun. i trembled, i couldn't believe, i prayed. then i heard yelling of the two nurses in icu and realized i couldn't stayed outside wrapped my helmet and it was a short ten minute walk between recovery room and icu. then we had about 12 american soldiers at that time, we had civilians and psw don't our soldiers came first. we picked them up and put them on cross, set them under the bed, we left on top of the bed and got other mattresses to shield them so another either
brass or shrapnel could come hit them and we did it for all of our soldiers first. and we did -- there were two women civilians and then we did the men vietnamese and fast but not least, pow who tripped on landmine and was in a body cast. it normally took five people to take care of him. to nurses and three corpsmen to begin to turn him we picked him up, put him on the cot and shoved him under the bed, we didn't have any more mattresses, we figured his body cast would protect him. i have a picture i can show you what it looks like if you would like me to show you at this time. okay. i'll show you the picture what
our unit looked like before and then what it looked like the night of thought explosion. this is what our unit looked like before. okay, that's even better. you can see light, they've got windows on the upper part. the windows had tape on them so in case something like that happen, the grass wouldn't explode but the door were wooden doors and you could see the beds in the unit. this is what it looked like "afterwards", i was sitting on a bed, we use one of the mattresses and we put a sheet over the door. we were on emergency power, all the power went off. my other fellow nurse put her head down on the desk we were just taking a break before everything happened to get ready
for the day shift but one of the fellows had a trach so one nurse and i were crawling on our hands and knees and we were suctioning him and i'll show you that here but we had to put the mattress document section machine at the head. suctioning him and the other nurses and knowing him because when you suctioning him from we take out the oxygen so we had to put the oxygen and so as i said, every time we got back, there were two other times but nothing was quite as bad as that. the ammunition, 5000 tons of ammunition exported that night and it lasted into the morning
so we finally got used to hearing it realizing it wasn't at our hospital which was the main thing of comfort. it made me realize it's not a place in war zone. >> so were there unexploded devices in the hospital area? >> no. the blast itself was a learning experience, i had no idea the progression could be that great, we didn't know what it was at the time. one of my favorite stories, bob hope could not come to our area, we were into part of an area. we didn't have an area big enough to do his show but they sent phyllis george, ms. america, 1970 i believe. she later became the first lady
of kentucky but she was so beautiful and so was all of her entourage. they came to our icu and talked to every single soldier which was awesome. the soldier, one of the soldiers are taking care of was at w campeche, both elbows amputated from the elbow down so he couldn't hold himself up. i was holding him up and she spent a lot of time with him and when she was leaving, i laid him down and wouldn't it be great if all of us looked back good? he looked up at me and said they don't hold a candle to what you looked like to us. i couldn't believe he said that and i leaned down and i said i will never forget you, thank you. he was supporting me when i was supposed to be supporting him.
another story, i never forget this one. there is a man near where we were in them mountains and for whatever reason, we needed that for voters and they would let them go and it just went on and on. one of the nights i was in recovery room and one of the soldiers came and and into recovery room and the doctor looked at me and he said he's lost one eye, i think the left i and is right i has a high fema and it so he wasn't sure if he would be able to see out of it so both eyes were patched. i left his left arm above the elbow in his right arm was totally lost. as he was waking up from anesthesia remember what
happened? he said yeah, and then he never finished. i said okay, try to relax, are you in pain? no, i'm not in pain. he was almost defiant, angry. why can't i see? i can't i do this? why can't i do that? you have any kind down. i laid my hand on his chest and i said you are in recovery, you've been injured. he said one of the extent of my injuries? i looked at the nurse, i knew we weren't supposed to tell him very much and i said your arms have been injured. he said how come i can put them on the bed?
we looked at each other and she said tell him now, she was are more seasoned nurse than i. she'd been there a lot longer. i called him by name and i told him about his arm. he says so why can't i see? i said both eyes are patched right now and i said the doctors going to come in the morning and check your eyes. he said well, great. now i'm going to have to sit on the side of the sidewalk just to make anything do. i said no, someone is determined as strong as you are going through this, we will get you through this i'm going to give you some pain medicine now and talk with you and we'll see how things go. okay? the next morning the doctor came in and looked at his eyes and the doctor was pretty hopeful for the one i but he was still
pretty upset he lost everything except his legs so he was with us at least two weeks which is usually, 14 days is usually the amount of time someone got seriously injured would be with us. every day we would sit down and write a letter to his wife and the wife did get letters and we would read to him and write more letters for him. we finally got him back to japan and he ended up back in colorado and he was one of the first bionic arms in the army so he wrote to us to tell us and this was so important to us because we never knew what happened to the fellows after they left us. here he was supporting us and letting us know he did okay even though he's arty been to hell, he says i can't go any further. he says but i'm going to make
it. something like that gave us hope maybe we can to new helping these fellows who are so young we felt old, 22 years old, most of them were 18 and 19 coming in. the age of 20 was the most that had died. it was over 30,000, 20-year-old who died so it seemed unreal to me only 20 years and they had to be on the wall. >> when we first invaded, they didn't know how to fight us and as they studied us, conduct our operating procedures, they could figure out how to attack us in our weaknesses like we do for them. our wounded have doubled. in zero six, we had what we
called a search and basically the u.s. answer to that was to triple the number of u.s. forces we had in iraq at the time you a big sweep across the country. and obviously roadside bombs, ied's and explosive devices. the more people, the more you can get entered so the wounded in action tripled in numbers, who are fighting ied's and insurgent sales so we were making a huge difference, it just came at a cost. new year's eve zero six going into zero seven on that same route, they had such a large blast, it cutthroat in half. a lot of times the insurgents would blow want and immediately go back in and fill it back up and fill it with dirt and make it look like the engineers came through and then they would drive over and blow again so we
would go down there and secure it. they told me it would be like 24 hours and would be gone and ended up being like four days sitting on that hole before the engineers got there but on one of the nights, they were trying to figure out who was in charge, we never knew who was in charge. i talked to him and he's like make sure your guys don't fall asleep. this area things happen at night and you don't want your guys sleeping and he was warning me to stay on guard and not get complacent. i was injured already but later on in the deployment in that exact pretty much area was where we had three of our soldiers captured. their bodies were later found in
2010 so it shows you there were times they were helping us and giving us intel and it would be better to tell us who was doing it versus just to keep our eyes open but unfortunately we lost a few of our guys in pretty much the same area but halfway through my deployment, being on the ground during infantry stuff, in my company, my platoon was on the ground. the engineer unit, call it wrote clearing and basically faith drive around and look for ied's. all we found was younger guys, especially the guys want getting infantry experiences looking around for ied's so we flip-flopped. they took over my sector to get
infantry experience and not it was our turn to drive around looking for ied's and we had huge armored vehicles, one was called a husky, it was like a detective vehicle and they could drive over minds and the minds would explode. instead of being flat at the bottom like the u.s. vehicles, they had a vehicle so they came down to a point above. it would shatter away versus going straight up into, so we had troop carrying vehicles just a little heavy armor so we could have higher power on top and one had a huge claw, we found something that looked suspicious, the claw would go forward with the vehicle and had a camera and we could interrogate it without ever leaving the security of our
vehicle. there were times we would take three hits in a single day, three ied's who weren't able to spot, they would detonate on us and as long as the vehicles would keep on, we kept on with the mission. we didn't stop. sometimes we got it bad enough to where our vehicle would be disabled and will call up and they would set send a wrecking crew to get us and mechanics would work on it. again, i can't stress enough how many of the ied's were out there, though whole area was littered in our vehicles couldn't turn around fast enough. i made a commander decision, i was going to take my commanders humvee and use it as my other vehicle and put it in the back of the convoy because typically we want getting hit in the rear too often and it was my vehicle.
we ran a few missions like that and didn't have any issues. in february 27, 2007 came about and started like any other day. woke up, got the guys ready, the vehicles prepped, crop them prepped and brought them in, we did our briefings, they knew exactly it would take about 15 our patrol by day to get through the rocks we had planned and we loaded up they been on the road about three hours and we came across around, it was a dead-end road typically when you plan your rhymes, you never cover the same route more than once because if you do, you get blown up because they can predict you. there's one way down, one way back unfortunately. we've taken our time and anytime we are looking for the ied's,
you're only going about 2 miles an hour so it's obviously why you need the heavy armored vehicles because you're going so slow, it's an easy target so we got to the end of the road. it's a very rural area, a lot of canals and farmland. not the open deserts people think of when they think of iraq different areas over the. once we started coming back up, we picked up the pace a little bit, we were probably going five to 10 miles an hour so it's not like we were speeding up the road but we were crawling either. then i heard the blast. i can remember hearing and before i could even get a word out, i was hitting the ground i can remember hitting my head on the ground when i was thrown from the vehicle and the kind of rolled a little bit, paused and when you go through these training, you go through the stuff as a leader, you always want to pause for a second and
get requests quick battle ground assessment, it can't be long, just a quick pause. at the time, i didn't see anything unusual, all i see is my thighs so i immediately got up to run from my vehicle and as i got close to the vehicle, i could feel the flames hit me in the face and i realized it was on fire because i felt like it was in the torso area, it was hitting me in the face so bad, i dropped my protective vest so i kind of just tossed it real quick and started to roll that i only got about a roll and a half in and the heat was so intense, it basically locked up my muscles. i couldn't move so at that time i can remember being face down in the dirt and they always say your life flashes in front of you, i didn't have that but i
definitely was like okay, this is it for me were my life ends, i'm going to die here on the ground in iraq and what am i going to do? i can't move, i'm on fire. about that time, the emotions and thoughts are coming over my body, i can hear my guys yelling for me but i didn't know how far out they were, didn't even know if there was anything they could do for me and before i knew it, they hit me with a fire extinguisher. that extreme heat and cooling, it wasn't like i was freezing but it was that cooling sensation immediately coming over my body and i don't think i will ever find the words to describe that feeling and the relief it provided me almost instantly but also gave me emotional aspect where okay, maybe i won't die here. the got to me and i feel like this right now, maybe i have a fighting chance to go on. from there, one of my young
sergeants, wasn't one of my best sergeants, i had planned on kicking him out of the army for other bad decisions he made. to the other guys are going to grab me and drag me off the road and he stopped them from you have to get the spine board. if you drag him, he will kill him. the only analogy i can use as a way to explain it, if you think about chicken, you just pull baked chicken out of the oven and how the meat and skin and everything comes off the bone, basically i had just been burned alive so if they had drug me, they probably would have killed me so here's a guy did have to make a quick call, knew how i felt about him essentially, he still made that lifesaving call people asked my opinion on that, it worked. for this oral
history recorded by the witness to war foundation. >> i'm sitting with patty justice who served in operation enduring freedom in afghanistan in the united states army nurse corps medical training support battalion, how are you doing today patty? >> doing great thank you. >> my first questions were read from originally? >> original from mexico city new mexico. i was born there, because my father was a vice president of the steel mill. he was looking for something to do a bit more extravagant and that's how i