tv Copenhagen Democracy Summit Conversation with Madeleine Albright - PART 2 CSPAN June 27, 2020 8:57pm-9:31pm EDT
the desperates in the world love to see more than the west wringing its hands over where to go. we are wasting so much political energy it is astounding, brexit and so forth. europe has been on hold for the last few years. >> it certainly wasn't a waste of our time. time to move on to the next session. i wish we could speak longer but everyone has limits on zoom. thank you so much. stay safe and well. take a short break before the next session. >> former secretary of state madeleine albright participates in a discussion with former nato as part of the copenhagen democracy summit. this is half an hour.
>> good afternoon. good evening, good morning. wherever you are in the world, welcome back to this session on democratic backsliding and u.s. global leadership. we are honored to have former u.s. secretary of state madeleine albright and the senior editor at politico. welcome. >> good morning. very good to be with you. >> absolutely. --pping and will be if we can kickoff with a question about the pandemic. it feels like authoritarians are getting a free pass to implement more of what they would like to impose on their citizens. from surveillance to military tactics. reference tos a china. feel free to correct me.
situation where many countries believe china has been handling this pandemic better than the u.s.. what is the outlook there? where do you think that leads china? clearly, china made a huge mistake from the perspective of the united states and democracy from the beginning by keeping andrmation about the virus arresting those that were coming forward with the truth. what's interesting is, this is the real paradox, clearly societies need to have some kind of rules when the virus has taken over. there are rules about social distancing and wearing masks and things. that means there's a role for government in terms of creating the rules.
making sure they are carried out. the question is how that disintegrates into total control and advantage for other terry and governments. the chinese have taken advantage of that. there has been a there has been kind of a return of the virus in china, and we are again talking about various lockups and aspects that are a danger. the part that is a danger and i think one has to have a discussion like we are having today, is try to recognize what is the role of the central government in trying to help develop those rules when the virus is spreading, also to have a government that actually recognizes the scientific basis of it and then figures out how allow local parts of any country to follow out the rules and give the people a chance to exist within a democratic
society, so i think that we shouldn't underestimate the difficulties in this. throw in awill question on hong kong just because. you have made clear that china is using a pandemic as a cover to push through changes and limit the rights over hong kong. what do you think the world needs to do to stop that? albright: i think one has to notice -- i was actually in hong kong for the turnover. thee were certain parts of law that allowed for the council to have a set of laws to be able to move towards a different kind of a system. they are using it as an excuse, there's no question about it. what i find very interesting is there are certain countries that control thele to
virus, and taiwan is one of them. one of the things is that countries that have women leaders have been able to control the virus better. taiwan, as i mentioned. .inland, germany, denmark is question is how democracy controlled. what are the various rules and tactics? how is that carried out? definitely much more consulting with people seeing people as the solution, not part of the problem, and certain characteristics i think women have in the way they govern, but clearly, understand the science of the issue, understanding that the people are partners in trying to solve this, and carrying -- caring about the well-being of the people, and this is an important part -- not pitting one group of people
against another. there are various aspects to it, but i do think democracy can control the virus, and i think we need to focus on that, while, clearly, those that have authoritarian tendencies are using it to push even further and create a really authoritarian government, and some of them say it's because they are trying to control the virus, when actually they are trying to control the people and have power. >> absolutely. picking up some of the results from the alliance of democratic perceptions index, something that really struck me in the result is that fewer and fewer people believed their own countries are democratic, even those who live in democracies, where you have a situation where half of america does not identify the u.s. as a democracy anymore. maybe that is about the polarization of politics. i don't want to speak on behalf of everyone who answered that survey, but what is your take on that situation there and that
global trend? is that something we need to be worried about in democracies themselves, that they will disintegrate, move into the s we have seen in hungary and so on? ms. albright: that is something a very worried about. i rode a book -- i wrote a book about fascism before the pandemic. by the way, fascism is not an ideology. i looked at the history of fascism, which begins with moo selena, and what happened with disrespectedally -- which begins with mussolini, and what happened with italy felt really disrespectful. you have this character who's a really good speaker, an outsider, and understood how power was gotten, and he then --
and by the way, this is what is interesting. both he and hitler came to power constitutionally. in the case of italy, king emmanuel turned over his government to mussolini. the best quote in the book was from mussolini, which is, "if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time, nobody notices." we talked about europe. or bond is a perfect example of this. he had been seeking power in hungary. hungary had problems as a result of world war i, feeling they had been betrayed from the treaty. i remember doing a survey in the early 1990's. we asked this of every country. "do you believe a piece of your country is in a neighboring country?" 80% of hungarians marked that
they think so. orban has operated on that. on the basis of keeping refugees out and to some extent trying to deal with the virus and creating declaring a national emergency and working off of that. what happens if you have a leader intent on getting power, they can use a crisis to really justify it. to understand that kind of leader thinks he is above the law, thinks the media is an enemy of the people and then there is the other thing which is to pit -- align yourself with one group and pit it against another. who then become scapegoats. that is the power of procedure that takes place. we have seen it in hungary, the philippines, venezuela and to some extent in poland. as nationalism rises in a number of countries, it becomes a tool for say we are better than you are and undermines trying to
deal with the virus which knows no borders. >> before the audience joined us, we were chatting about social media. a lot of these discussions can happen very quickly and at scale but still privately and out of the public eye and out of the way of accountability. in a sense you can do everything quick with social media whether it is good or bad. i was wondering if you have reflections about what we might need to do to make sure those platforms are not doing harm in the way that it seems they now may be when it comes to democracy. ms. albright: when social media became obvious, i remember -- i am chairman of the board of the national democratic institute , which is part of the endowment for democracy which was started by president reagan who thought that democracies were not real good about explaining themselves vis-a-vis communism.
it has been interesting to study how democracy took hold after the end of the cold war and a .rend towards democratization i always thought when people said, "x country is not ready we are all the same and everybody is ready for democracy, to make decisions about their own lives. i have to tell you, we thought the rise in social media would democratize in many ways because people would have access to information and ways of participating. it turns out to have been a double-edged sword. the question, and there is a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of how the platforms are used, how not to get into the process -- you don't want censorship but how do you keep the material that is wrong or
inducing to violence out of it, so these are the big issues democracies have to deal with in a way that is not authoritarian frankly. you would agree it is a complex issue and it is in many ways -- i was thinking even made more complicated by the virus because all of a sudden we have to figure out ways to attract -- how to track people and how is that done. it is the pandora's box of major proportions. it is a truly essential problem that needs to be discussed between the people and the government. it needs to be discussed by journalists themselves and by academics, experts and i think it is one of the not so hidden issues that will make the next phase international system much more complicated than before.
i don't think we are going back to anything that happened before the virus. we need to think anew about structures, information and the people. >> you raised a gender leadership role earlier on. if i could talk about gender and the general population, i got in trouble by suggesting the pandemic was hitting women harder than men. that might not always be true in the death rate, but it has reminded us of the structural inequalities women are facing and those get amplified what the -- by what the pandemic does to the economy. what is your advice to those looking to address inequalities around the world?
ms. albright: what is essential is to recognize it. part of the problem is they have not talked enough about who is affected by what. one of the issues is in the strong obviously now at the moment and i think for a long time in the united states is how it has affected our black population and stimulated a discussion about systemic racism. so that is one of the issues. it has affected women in a number of different ways because many of them are the caregivers and they are the ones that have to continue to give care to their families. when there are not enough jobs, one thing we do know is women are laid off. even when they are not, don't get paid the same amount as the
men. the other part, and this is the combination of all of the problems that are there and make this time difficult, is that there are refugees and immigrants many of whom are women who end up in some of the refugee camps. they get infected from what goes on there. one thing leads to another and the whole issue of how the pandemic has operated within the refugee population, many of whom are women. the other part that happens is there is violence against women and that is more likely to come up when there is, when there are problems and people are under stress and there are various instincts or whatever one calls it many to be stopped. violence against women is one of them. in many ways women are a large proportion of the victims of the
pandemic which affects their life and livelihood. >> you have lived through so many turning points in history from world war ii to 1968, 1989, 911. do you think we will look back at 2020 or do you feel it as a turning point in modern history? what can we do to make it a turning point? -- a turning point that we will be proud of when we look back? ms. albright: i will say if one looks at the elements and how it is affecting not just one country but everybody in the world, it is interesting to know there are very new countries -- very few countries that have totally not been affected or they don't know what their statistics are. it makes us realize we need to sort out how institutional structures work internationally
and domestically, what the role of technology is in all of this and who it affects. i think it is a turning point. i hate this cliche. it just happens to work. a crisis can be an opportunity. i said even before all of this, and i wrote my fascism book before, we need to recognize that the international system was not working. i've said people and institutions in their 70's need a little refurbishing. so a lot of the institutions we have worked with internationally and domestically were created out of world war ii. some were modified after the end of the cold war. i had an interesting time working with rasmussen, secretary general of nato, to deal with the changes on that. i think one can see this as a
major turning point and needs to be seen as an opportunity to rethink how we deal with global pandemic that requires international cooperation and how it affects our government. from what you said earlier, you need a government to make rules about how to deal with a pandemic. how do you make sure the government does not overstep its balance and the chicken ends up being bald? -- make sure the government does not overstep its bounds. >> it is almost time to invite dean fritz meyer. he has an exciting partnership to announce with you. you made us think of a final question. as the work you did, how much harder when it have been if you did not have membership of international organizations like the world health organization or if you were cutting off those?
i am going to assume you disagree with president trump's decision to undercut those organizations. in practical terms how much , harder would it have been to do your job without those organizations? ms. albright: it would have been impossible. i had been ambassador before i was secretary of state. i understood the importance of the relationships. we were dealing with serious issues where there was ethnic cleansing taking place. -- very serious issues. kosovo, for instance, where there was ethnic cleansing taking place. we wanted to undertake whatever we had to do with partners multilaterally. i teach at georgetown and i teach a course which talks about the national security toolbox. partners.eed are especially at the end of the 20th century, you needed partners. i was the first secretary of state in the 21st century , and we were constantly building bridges to the 21st century.
it has turned out to be even more complicated having started with the terrorist threat and looking towards climate change and now this pandemic. there is no question you need international organizations to work together and to complement and work and recognize the national governments and how they fit into an international system. otherso recognize stakeholders, which is the private sector. whether it is corporations, ngo's, universities, you need everybody working on what our -- what are complicated new problems and recognizing democracy is the only answer. >> thank you so much for the conversation. time for me to leave now. you will stay on the line, but i will say goodbye to everyone watching and welcome dean fritz meyer from the university of denver for the announcement. ms. albright: thank you.
>> our session with secretary albright to announce a strategic partnership between the alliance of democracy foundation and the joseph coble's school of international studies at the university of denmark. let me welcome the dean of the coble school at the university to our virtual state. i went to denver university in late february back when we could actually travel the world, with --the state sharing the stage with senator romney, discussing the state of democracy. at the same time i had good talks with the dean and other faculty members on cooperation with my foundation. that is what we are announcing today.
it brings a special significance to have secretary albright with us. since the school bears her family name through her father. joseph covell, and you, madam secretary, represent such strong american and european stories. a stronger transatlantic link does not exist. that is also in the same spirit which will guide our cooperation. what do we want to achieve? we want to establish the annual copenhagen democracy summit and also make a joint event in denmark for leaders who care about the health of democracy and liberal, international order.
in this summit we have included students from the korbel school at denver university, and i hope you have all been listening diligently even though we started early in your time zone. and with these objectives in mind, i am happy to begin this partnership and would turn to the dean for his thoughts and in conclusion to secretary albright. first you, fritz. korbel -- mr. mayor -- mr. : first, let. mayer me thank you and say what an honor it is to be with you. started this we conversation what seems an age ago, but, in fact, we earlier this year in denver. so much has changed. we are very pleased and happy
our students have been able to attend this summit, early as it might be for them. and to highlight the work of our great faculty. i hope many of you in the audience caught the session yesterday on ensuring women's rights during the pandemic that was moderated by professor marie berry. at the korbel school from the , beginning really, democracy and the transatlantic alliance have been core concerns of the school. it is in our dna, the life journey of joseph korbel, the founding dean and madeleine albright's father. from caught between fascism and communism to denver, colorado, the founding of the school made him aware that democracy is ultimately a necessary condition for addressing all other issues and that the united states has a
cash and enduring role and responsibility to promote it. those convictions live on at the korbel school. there are of course many worrisome trends in the world , many discussed at this summit and in the united states as well. this is also to my eye a hopeful moment. in the protests happening in the united states and around the world, there is a stirring of democracy particularly among the younger generation. there is a great optimism in protest. it demands that we can make a -- it demands or depends on the belief that we can make a difference. i would be remiss if i did not note that today in the united states is juneteenth, the anniversary of the signing of the emancipation proclamation that freed u.s. slaves. it is a day that has long been celebrated in african-american communities, but now i hope and believe a day that will become a
fixture on the american civic calendar. a day to remember and celebrate , to be sure, but also for us to continue our long, slow journey towards equality. this is a particularly auspicious moment to launch our partnership. we are combining the strength of the alliance of university of -- the alliance and the university of denver, collaborating on research, engaging students in this work, sponsoring events and hopefully soon hosting all of you at some point in denver. there is a lot of work ahead, a lot of challenges but we look forward to working with you and the alliance of democracies in this work. thank you. >> thank you. now it is you, madeleine. ms. albright: thank you. i am really sorry that we are not in copenhagen which was the original plan to spend time together. you and i met 10 years ago when
we were doing a review of the nato alliance. so i call you secretary-general. i think this is truly a perfect alliance between your institution and the university of denver, and in so many because there is no question -- i consider myself the epitome of the euro-atlantic relationship. there are so money things my father used to say, and one was when we came to the united states, that americans don't recognize the fragility of democracy and that we always have to keep working on it, and there was nothing better to be a -- better than to be a professor in a free country. he loved being at the university of denver and to be in colorado
and to spend time with the young people and talk about diplomatic history and the importance of democracy and people participating in it. i do think this is one of the truly great agreements that have been made, because you and i have seen each other quite a lot in between, testified together in front of congress on the problems of authoritarianism. i know your dedication to democracy and your interests in having this relationship. i think it is great to have this relationship between the korbel school and you. fritz is a terrific person to pull it all together. i look forward to being invited and having a chance to really link these two great organizations together and understand that democracy is under threat. and it has to be developed by
understanding what the 21st century has brought and to understand the importance of relationships, so i thank you both for doing this, and i think it is a great time and a very difficult moment to look forward and understand that there are that can make us functional and democratic in the 21st century. >> thank you very much for those kind words. you will definitely be invited. you,ld like to thank secretary albright, dear madeleine, for your time today and for blessing our new cooperation with the korbel school, and dean mayor -- dean mayer, fritz, i look forward to working with you and the school. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> and this concludes this session. now we will turn to our session
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