tv Reps. Mcgovern Jordan Raskin Exchange on Presidential Election Results CSPAN January 12, 2021 1:30pm-2:04pm EST
>> with the votes in the 2020 presidential election now counted and confirmed by congress, attention turns to the inauguration of the 46th president of the united states. on january 20, joe biden and kamala harris take the oath of office as president and vice president of the u.s. our live coverage begins at 7:00 a.m. eastern on wednesday, january 20. watch live on c-span, watch live streaming or on demand at c. span.org, or listen with the free c-span radio app. >> you're watching c-span, your unfiltered view of government. c-span was created by america's
cable television companies in 1979. today, we are brought to you by these television companies who provide c-span to viewers as a public service. >> my question for you is will you admit that joe biden won fair and square and the election was not rigged or stolen? >> can you hear me, mr. chairman? mr. mcgovern: i k >> what i did over the past several months is follow the process that the constitution prescribes. it wasn't me who said it, it was justice ginsburg -- mr. mcgovern: that's not the question i asked.
i don't knee to filibuster. mr. jordan: i'm not going to filibuster, mr. chairman. the late justice ginsburg said january 6 is the date of ultimate significance. that's how congress sets this up in the statute they passed dealing with the 12th amendment. we followed that process, and at 4:00 a.m. on thursday, january 7, when we concluded our business on the floor, joe biden became vice president -- vice president biden became president-elect biden. that's how the process plays out. those of us who spoke against the unconstitutional way several states conducted their election were following the process. we did nothing different. than democrats have done every time republicans have been elected this century. in fact, our colleague, sponsoring this resolution, bjected to on january 6, 2017. we followed the patriots sess -- of course it's a question. said that before.
groups in this country but i never thought, i never thought i would see what he said at that rally and so, i mean the deal is and my question was very simple. i'm not make asking you to make a statement that the election was not stolen, that joe biden won fair and square, and one of the ways to promote healing is say yes and put that on your twitter account so all these people who bought into a lie we'll start hearing from some of the people who were pushing this. the answer is -- mr. jordan: joe biden is going to be sworn in as president. mr. mcgovern: that's not the question i asked. mr. jordan: our concern and why we raised objections was in several states the rules were changed in an unconstitutional fashion. you had secretaries of states
nd governors and county clerks -- that's all we were pointing out. that's all we were putting it out. just like our colleague, mr. raskin, put out concerns he had on january 6 -- mr. mcgovern: the gentleman will suspend. you refuse to answer that question and -- mr. jordan: i did not refuse. he is going to be the president. i said that on television. he's goingthe country knows that. tonight president. r. mcgovern: that is not the question i asked. i asked you to lay bare the fact that this lie out there, that somehow that joe biden did not win the election fair and square. he did. the president to this day continues to perpetrate that. [talking over one another]
mr. mcgovern: i yield to the gentleman from maryland. mr. raskin: i want to make one point about article 2 section one argument. that was made the day when all of us almost lost our lives. as lens yea graham put it. as i was moved by senator graham. he said these people came in to the buildings without metal detectors they could have had a bomb and we could have died. we have to try and step up our discussion from the normal level of just partisan rhetorical combat. point scoring. the point our colleague from ohio makes about article 2 section 1 was raised by trump campaign team in numerous courts across the country where it faced the same massive decisive repudiation by
trump's own appointees, by republican judges, by democratic judges. it is ridiculous and empty. there is nothing to respond to there. and the state legislatures that they are advocating for are not taking that position. those legislatures are not going to court to say our own supreme court violated, our own governor violated a prerogative. nobody buys that. mr. jordan is correct, they had an argument, and ridiculous and silly argument and point of common sense and i want america to follow the great tom payne, use your common sense. that argument was made and it helped to delay the proceedings and then this mob comes in and there is at least one call from the president during the mayhem and chaos to a senator telling him to keep the objection going
and to prolong the process. so, i just disagree profoundly with the substance of that argument. every court in the land has rejected it and state legislatures don't buy it. it's fine mr. jordan wants to go back to it, but all of us should do some soul-searching about five dead americans. a capitol police officer dead, people wounded, lots of cops in the hospitals and country in edge and right wing thinks we are on the verge of a civil war. come on, guys. can we act as rules together as a congress to tell the vice president to acknowledge what is obvious which is this president is not up to the job for the next eight days and a lot of danger faces us. mr. mcgovern: i don't want to belabor this point, i am stunned that after all that has
happened that you keep that definitive answer -- mr. jordan: mr. chairman, i said joe biden won the election but there were problems with how it was done i think in an unconstitutional fashion and things we objected to. mr. mcgovern: people came here. mr. jordan: you disagree with what justice ginsburg said? mr. mcgovern: people came here because they believed the lie that the president and many people in this chamber perpetrated that this election was not run in a fair and square fashion. and to the president to this day continues to perpetrate the lie that he won this election by a landslide. you want to talk about healing, the people who came here thought the president was telling the truth like many of you who are backing him up are telling the truth and ended up in this terrible ordeal which
five people lost their lives. mr. jordan: did you object on january 5, 2017. mr. mcgovern: i didn't say the election was stolen and i acknowledged he was the president the day after the election. hillary clinton conceded the day after the election. [talking over one another] mr. mcgovern: mr. jordan, excuse me. what i raised objections to was the fact that all our intelligence agencies had raised concerns about russian interference in our election which apparently didn't matter to some of you. did not try to overturn the election and -- so anyway, i think you have answered my question and i will -- mr. jordan: we have a double standard.
you and mr. raskin were allowed to object in 2017. no republicans were allowed -- mr. raskin, may i respond? mr. mcgovern: yes, i yield to the gentleman. mr. raskin: total false moral equivalency. a lot of members who tried to point out problems in the electoral college. the one i pointed out there were elected officials who were electors in violation of the state constitution, and i think it was the state of florida, and i think i raised that point for 15 or 20 seconds. nowhere did i incite mob insurrection against the government of the united states. there were millions of people to take up the chairman's point, who were convinced that putin was cyber sabotage against the d.n.c. and profoundly influenced the 2016 election. what do the democrats do do? they put on pink winter hats and marched peacefully and
worked with their churches, to try to reform america. nobody was out there advocating for a violent armed insurrection against the government of the united states. yield back. >> some of the house rules committee debate from earlier today. they came in at 11:00 eastern. they have been considering a resolution by jamie raskin, democrat of maryland, which would urge vice president pence to invoke the 25th amendment to immediately remove president trump from office. again, they have been meeting since about 11:00 this morning. they are in a recess now. possibly back within 30 minutes or so. they still have to come back. additional debate is likely. and they have to vote on the rule. that rule will be taken to the house floor this evening. the house back around 6:00 p.m., we understand this evening. we look for an initial vote around 7:30, which will likely be on that rule for h.res. 21 it's called, on invoking the
25th amendment. we will take you back live to rules when they return here. could be within 30 minutes or so. we did want to point out, too, that the f.b.i. and the u.s. -- acting u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, michael sherwin, holding a briefing on the attack on the u.s. capitol and the arrest of participants in that and other information. that's coming up at 3:00 eastern. we will aim to carry it live here on c-span if we are able. if we can't, you can find that live online at c-span.org. we'll take you back now to the beginning of the rules committee meeting and go back live when the committee gavels back in. mr. mcgotsche: the rules committee will come to order. we have a weighty responsibility before us today so we are going to truncate our organizational process. an agreement with the minority, the agreement will move to adopt last year's rules by
unanimous consent. we'll leave consideration of any further motion for later today. returning democratic members, represent yips hastings, torres, perfect mutter, raskin, scallon, deshaun yea. and republican republican members, ranking member cole, dr. burr guess, and representative lesko. i want to welcome our new members, representative deborah ross from north carolina and representative guy reschenthaler from pennsylvania. i look forward to working with all of you. and in a minute will i call for a unanimous consent to the approval of the -- to the approval of the committee staff and option of the rules from last congress but before i do i want to yield to mr. coal for any remarks he might have.
mr. cole: sorry about that. i want to thank you very much and look forward to working with you and a all of our colleagues on the committee for the coming year. we agree with you on the organizational matters that you are dealing with and operated under in the 116th and bropetly organize it another day given heavy responsibilities before us. thank you very much. again, thank you very much. mr. mcgovern: at this time, we will adopt the committee rules from the 116th congress as the rules for the 117th ongress. in agreement with the minority we intend to meet to consider chapings to the rules at a later date and send amended rules for publication at that point. without objection, the rules committee rules of the 116th ongress are adopted. without objection, the staff on both the majority and minority of the committee on rules is approved.
so given the business we need to handle today, we will postpone all other organizational matters until a later date. this concludes the organization of the committee on rules. without objection, the committee will adjourn our organizational meeting. we will now move onto the business of the next item of business. the rules committee will come to order. this is a solemn day. and i had hoped to begin this congress tackling covid relief, infrastructure, legislation to combat climate change. but the words and actions of donald trump make that impossible. we must consider a resolution by our colleague, congressman raskin. the 25th amendment is intended for the rarest of occasions and the decision for the vice president, cabinet members and members of congress to remove a
president is not whether we belong to the same party or whether we even like each other. it turns on a fundamental question, whether a president has proven himself to perform the duties of the office. since the voters legitimated -- elected joe biden to be the next president of the united states, donald trump has been unable to accept reality. for weeks he has sought to undermine the election results of multiple states, ignoring his loss in court decision after court decision. then the president openly called for the vice president to ignore his constitutional obligations and block the certification of joe biden's victory and the congress on january 6. when the vice president chose is oath to the nation over personal or partisan allegiances, donald trump led the country to a place we have
never seen any president take us before. he called together an angry mob and filled them with false hope and then sent them to the united states capitol. once here, their defiant support for the president led to a riot through the halls of the capitol. with noose and gallows, they chanted hang mike pence. at some domestic terrorists in militia gear holding zip ties charged the capitol, others looked for members of congress. all of them were here to stop the democratic process. by day's end, five were dead including one police officer windows can be fixed, doors can be mended, hallways can be cleared and statues can be restored. the harm to our democracy, however, will take much longer to heal.
to begin that healing process, this congress must bear witness to the crimes that were committed and we must demand truth and accountability. by his actions and inactions on january 6, the president has proven that he is unable to discharge the duties and powers of his office. i wish he would resign, but he is apparently unwilling to do so. it is past time for the vice president to do the right thing here. it is my hope that a strong bipartisan vote on this resolution will encourage the vice president to remove donald trump from office. our nation, our democracy and freedom cannot risk another day of the trump presidency. now let me turn to the ranking member for any comments he ishes to make. mr. cole: mr. chairman, before i go into my formal comments and speaking for everybody on the committee but certainly
everybody on our side of the committee tell mr. raskin how much we grieve with him for his loves and how much we admire him for continuing to perform unimaginable circumstances. we don't always agree on the issues but nobody that i admire more as a person and set a better example how to carry under mostly extraordinary difficult circumstances. jamie, god be with you and your family. please know we are all praying for you and support you and continuing to perform your important constitutional functions again under extraordinarily difficult circumstances. god be with you, my friend. mr. chairman, today, as you said is a very sad day for all of us. this is not how i thought the opening of the 117th congress would begin. and i associate myself with how
strongly everybody feels about what happened last wednesday. it was a horrific day, unacceptable day in american history and a sobering day and one full of tragedy that will cast a long shadow over the congress in the weeks and months and frankly, years ahead. sadly, we are here today on a grave matter and here to discuss a resolution sponsored by congressman raskin. this resolution calls on vice president pence to convene the officers of the cabinet and invoke section 4 of the 25th amendment declaring the president of the united states incapable of executing the duties of his office. while i greatly respect my friend, this resolution is misguided and inappropriate for the legislative branch to pursue. under the 25th amendment responsibility for initiating the process for making a determination as to whether or
not the president is unable to fulfill his or her duties resides solely with the vice president. no role for congress absent a dispute between the president, vice president and the cabinet over the duties. -- over his other her ability to fulfill those duties. congress may designate another body to exercise this power, today it has not done so nor achieved by this resolution. with today's resolution the majority is asking the house to assume a power it does not have. the house has no role of initiating section 4 of the 25th amendment not even through a nonbinding resolution. we should not pretend otherwise. instead that power lies with the vice president and the cabinet. i have to say that during last wednesday's events vice president pence showed sound judgment. his performance was above reproach, indeed he fulfilled his act of office in a manner befitting his constitutional role as vice president.
we should call this resolution a transparent attempt to pressure the vice president in performing a duty that he does not believe is necessary at this time. the vice president has not done what the majority wants him to do and so they are pushing forward this resolution in an attempt to execute the house's will. i have strong faith in vice president and i believe he will consider his constitutional duty in the same manner. manner that he carries out all other constitutional duties, in a forth right manner that fulfills his oath of office. should he believe that the 25th amendment needs to be invoked, i have faith that vice president pence both as a leader and former house colleague would exercise good judgment with respect to performing that duty. again, vice president pence's lord of sound judgment in times of crisis should speak for all of us on this issue. last wednesday's events were deeply troubling for the nation, mr. chairman. there is no one joining this
meeting that condones the destructive violence, sought to harm innocent lives and disrupt democracy at work. it never should have happened and i cannot condemn the perpetrators of the crimes strongly enough and we are committed to ensure that justice is served. however the resolution before the committee today will not achieve the desired result, with that, mr. chairman, i yield back. mr. mcgovern: the gentleman yields back the balance of his time. i appreciate his remarks. i want to recognize our first panel and i want to join with mr. cole and i think i speak for verybody on this committee when i say to mr. raskin how he and his wife have been in our prayers over the last several days. and you have been a great inspiration to all in continuing to show up and doing this important work and your
son tommy has been an inspiration and his legacy continues to be incredible with all the acts of kindness that people are doing in his honor and all of the great causes that people are supporting. i appreciate that very much. but i want to recognize the gentleman from maryland, mr. raskin and the gentleman from ohio, mr. jordan, who will be our first panel. and i yield to mr. raskin. mr. raskin: thank you for your extremely thoughtful and loving remarks. thanks to you and every member of this committee. everyone who reached out to help and sarah and my family in this terrible heartbreak and grief for us and we are a family here on the rules committee. mr. cole, i'm moved beyond ords by your tender thoughts
and i enjoy your friendship. in recognition of that i'm not even going to respond to your comments for a few minutes. i'm going to talk about some other stuff and try to refute. but i think i have the reputation of what you are saying. i do hope our whole committee on both sides will think of this resolution as the way to bring not the committee but the full house of representatives together in making clear that what took place is absolutely intolerable and unacceptable and it is critical for us now to make clear that this was absolute dereliction of presidential duty. it is very clear that the president did not discharge the proper duties of office.
and i suppose when we come to discuss impeachment, there might be some differences in assign. of the degree, fault, and blame of responsibility that will be laid at the foot of the president, but i think in this -- for the purposes of this resolution we can all agree that the conduct of the executive branch fell dramatically below the constitutional standard set forth for the president. now, there are three ways to protect the nation against a president whose conduct poses a clear and present danger to the people. first is to defeat him in an election and the american people just did that in november, 2020 giving joe biden to a seven million vote victory over president trump and
.elivering him 306 to margin that president trump described as a landslide. this is what the people have done and indeed president trump's persistent refusal to accept these election results and the outcome and his trying -- his determination to discredit, nullify, and over turn the election results that has led us to the current national crisis. the second way to remove a president is to impeach him in the house for having committed high crimes and misdemeanors within the meaning of the constitution, and then trying him in the senate. this is a familiar mechanism that the committee knows well and you will remember the marathon 10-hour session that
our former colleague doug collins and i had back in december of 2019 when we voted to bring to the floor articles of impeachment relating to the president's efforts to pressure a foreign government to get involved in the 2020 presidential campaign here in the united states and to smear vice president joe biden. now the final mechanism, for emoving a president who -- mr. mcgovern: jamie, you need to unmute. mr. raskin: the final mechanism for removing a president who is failing to meet the most basic duties of his office, indeed actually harming the republic with his conduct, is the 25th amendment. the whole purpose which was adopted in 1967 is to defend
the stability of the republic and to guarantee the state continuity of governmental operations at the very highest levels. it was adopted several years after the assassination of john f. kennedy and robert f. kennedy pushed it along with senator bayh. but it was passed on an overwhelming bipartisan basis at the dawn of the nuclear age because questions of physical and mental fitness were prominent in the minds of americans at that point. and as they often said, we have 535 members of congress and if something goes wrong or one of them or two of them or a dozens of them, the congress will keep functioning. but we only have one president of the united states. and if that president is unable to successfully discharge the duties and powers of office, that becomes a crisis for the entire republic.
contrary to popular belief, the 25th amendment has been activated and employed numerous times since it was adopted back 67. section 1 says the vice president becomes a president in the president vacancy happened when president nixon resigned and gerald ford became president. before that point it was unclear whether the vice president was actually becoming the president or just exercising the powers of the president. and it was the 25th amendment which settled that question in section 1. section 2 established the way to fill a vacant vice presidentsy and that took place when, for example, agnu, resigned as vice president and then president nixon follows the -- followed the provisions of section 2, nominated gerald ford and he was ratified by a majority vote in both houses of congress. now, section 3 i like to think of as the section that deals th the famous presidential
colon, because it was used when ronald reagan underwent colorectal surgery and he voluntarily and temporarily transferred of powers of his office to george herbert walker bush. and then after that incapacity ended, he by letter resumed the powers of the office. president george w. himself invoked section 3 in transferring powers of the office to then-vice president dick cheney when president bush underwent a colonoscopy. it's been used for that and other surgeries. today we're looking at section 4 which we are asking the vice president to invoke by activating and mobilizing the cabinet. to declare what is patently obvious to a horrified and anxious nation. the president is not even
minimally discharging the basic duties of his office. now, my friend, mr. cole, says that in drafting and adopting such a resolution, we would be operating outside of the proper legislative sphere under the 25th amendment. on the contrary, if you go back and look at the legislative history of the 25th amendment, it was deeply intended by senators and all of the members who were involved in it to promote collaboration among the different branches to guarantee the stability of government and the continuity in office. mr. cole of course is right that it's up to the vice president and we're not trying to usurp his authority in any way. we're trying to tell him that the time of the 25th amendment emergency has arrived. it has come to our door step it. has invaded our chamber. we just saw the unprecedented event of hundreds or