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tv   Quadriga - The International Talk Show  LINKTV  January 16, 2019 2:30pm-3:01pm PST

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ongoing conflicts in both syria and in ukraine. you initial so gravely divided chronically underfunded and mired in inefficiency. not to mention the aggressive challenge posed by us president donald trump to the rules based international order. on which t the u. n. is. so a question here on quarter you get this week is germany joins the security council but is the u. n. broke. and to discuss a question on judge to the studio by. three service on the list beginning with going to a ploy to go -- was germany's ambassador to the u. n. between two thousand and two and two thousand and six he say's an increasingly interdependent
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world. we need to you and this is the only organization that confined global solutions and set new international. also with us is christopher marshall chief diplomatic correspondent for the berlin based daily der tagesspiege. two argues that. nice is not enough germany must show that he can exercise pressure. to achieve its goals. and a very warm welcome to to andrea shalal senior correspondent with the reuters news agency. andre believes that the united nations has long standing institutional problems that have been magnified by donald trump's america first policies. but she maintains it will serve big hits a day on caller id like to begin with you ambassador ploy go who has you've you've served at the united nations for four years. a couple of years ago just tell us what the mood is like at the united nations at the moment it seems that it's the worst that it's been for a long time. well i think the united
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nations has always struggled with certain inefficiencies sir that emanate from its structure. but said it is a certainty. at six oh eight has been successful in many cases just to give you one exampl. i remember when in two thousand for the violence broke out again in high et. on a sunday morning the president of the security council called the members and said we will have a meeting at four o'clock this afternoon. byby seven o'clock we had taken all the necessary decisions and by ten o'clock in the that day. the two airplanes french and american soldiers there airborne on their way to haiti so that's possible too but on the other hand right now of course. the u. n. isn't a particularly difficult position because not only because of trump's policy but because we are troubled
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in practically all corners of the world. and the u. when can solve these problemss only with te cooperation of the member states. n. dead without the member states corporation is a u. n. as powerless. let me just to come in on the on the to the united nations if you so well but suppose by two us president donald trump i'm trail. when he was still president elect two thousand sixty said when do you see the united nations solving problems? they don't take calls problems do you agree. i'm you know i think the united nations has as as a problem that in that it it isn't properly represented i mean. most of the countries of the world art and don't you know we only have five permanent members of the security council so there's been a lot of calls. for that structure to be revamped to increase the representation if you don't if you have a body that purports to speak for the whole world but but there are many countries that are not represented that creates these kind of imbalances.
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that we see and i think you know yeah i think that you and i would say is trying to solve problems but often unintentionally unusually exacerbations magnifies the problems that are manifested at the united nations how does he magnifies the problems whether. this of the funding of the funding for operations is very heavily weighted to the united states when the united states pulls out its funding. of of programs like the u. anti appear at the end of the year one route organization what happens is that those imbalances become much more evident. so he sort of you know you see the basically the unilateral actions at the united nations is taking and the rejection of the un structures. are in fact kind of would you know review well one of those who say that the united nations is a good idea in principle but the reality is something completely different. tell us about that troubling reality. was united nations comp be
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more democratic and more rules space than its member states are and the majority of member states are dictatorships or at least authoritarian regimes see. democracies in the states of law are in the minority and that of course limits the possibilities of the united nations to be what they are supposed to be which is. somehow. the car until her of a rules based -- well to order. and this is a special challenge to germany. germany is a used to put the main point on diplomatics on on on on on diplomatic solutions and also being nice and talking people into a solutions. and iff we have partners which just -- don't. agree on that and say well. if you block a certain solution it's much better for us of than germany is not up to the task and that's i think what germany has to do now it has to show that it's not only able to be nice but also. to apply pressure it's the fourth biggest economic country.
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how off the world s so we he a lot of taking military actionon we can put pressure on member states and we should do that and? unfortunately the first -- what's what's thehe fedederl government senent until n nw house he e sees a roll of te security council doesn't pointing to that direction it's more of being nice again. what needs to change? well all foreign minister for example michael maas said. he wants to put the focus on climate change on the role of women in conflict and on a diplomatic preemption. of conflict that this all nice affair but it's not enough means a real big problems are how do we deal with the ukrainian war or crisis how do we deal with china's behavior. in the chinese a cease putting pressure how do we deal with your two minute tearing crisis and a civil unrest in yemen and so don wherever youou look. and that you can't just sold by talking nicely and trying to persuade. the bill do worse --
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to behave a little bit better you have to put pressure on those regimes and you have to stand up against china and russia in a certain way and i don't see that willing this until now. is a german democ diplomacy. i think up to go. to follow up that -- we have to make sure that the the trata is being recognized and and said we'd do at speed. remember the iran the agreement. that was an agreement worked out by a a five member states. and date it was adopted by the security council by a unanimous vote. so at that time it became international law because a decision of the security council under article twenty five of the top. to is binding on all member states that means it has become international now you
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cannot you can. destroy all from a treaty but you cannot withdrawal from international. and we have to make this sure that it is an old one ole ole and also in the security council okay never heard about this one taken under. moses gonna say no germany keeps saying it wants to play a bigger role in the world. and i'm in others deep skepticism about whether it will ever make that promise. is. true because it keeps saying france with her the same mantra over and over again we're hearing it now from high go mass. in and the question is how exactly does germany plan to do that and so i was. just you know struck the skepticism is present but just internationally but here in germany as well. and went past a probably happen is that there has to be a title shift. in terms of education of the german public because one of the biggest barriers to germany. and you know being more
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powerful is that it it doesn't carry a big stick. so it has economic might but a bit won't engage in military action that it won't do that because of massive political resistance in germany. but the times are changing okay that we'll talk about that point to just a minute but first of all christopher christopher from marshall. what's -- so to what extent is the veto power of the p. five of the hearts of many of the problems that face the united nations and the security council. of course that is a very. how awful -- and measure which they can take and of course i would say when i when i advocated for gemini putting press also in china or on on run so that would mean. that we can overcome as the beach off china or for a fresh -- but we can feel lets them feel the cononsequences for the time being russia for example. just made it impossible to talk about you korean crisis in the security council and
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in the u. n.. should we agree to that should we just let it tell them you know we have a lot of economic -- possibilities what to do with you -- if you don't agree that at least we can discuss these. problems. with you and the steps should be taken i also have no illusions that china will change its behavior. in in the cease or when it comes. to to to trade politics or or whatever about we can. let's send pay a certain price if he missed behave and this willingness has. to emerge so it's not only about the militaristic it's also about using or economic powers the economic power stick. and for the time being in germany is a normal reaction as well you know we don't want to let that business goal it's much better to play nice with china or tool to have -- energy contracts was russia and we never seriously talk about that because change this kind of politics okay let's stay on the vita
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because of the the last year so the greatest number of vetoes in the security council since. nineteen eighty nine mostly over syria the impact as we see now has been tragic. the images shocks the world victims of an alleged chemical attack on to my new damascus. many of them children. and the international community frozen moscow used its veto power in the u. n. security council to defend a sense regime against western interests. sanctions investigations ceasefire agreements pull blocks. in the russian ukrainian disputes over the status of the crimean peninsula as well the u. n. cut off a little more than symbolic support. as feared russia and the u. s. stopped any productive resolution from getting underway. the us is also made active use of its vetoing privileges towards the end of twenty seventeen it blocked a resolution criticizing trump's decision
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to recognize jerusalem as israel's capital. now the american embassy is moving from tel aviv to jerusalem. wh good is a sececurity coununcil with veto in powe? also deployed to is the security council being reduced to a blocking shop. to a certain extent yes because of the beatles of the five members. who have a right of veto chris are involved in -- they tend -- to to block a decision. but on the other hand to i think -- we a foot not discuss whether we could abolish the veto because that's not possible. because the beetle -- cannot be removed to unless you have a change of the kata and a change of the fatah needs a two thirds majority in the drain the simply means that the security council is frozen in time it's frozen.
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go go right back to the end of the second world war was stuck there forever and a day yes the problem is that the change of the top to removing the vehicle would require. z. a. z. as the consent of the p.. five that's put in the shadows so it's it's in vain to discuss whether we could abolish the vehicle but what we can do with. that i agree this because of a monster we can put pressure. and by good arguments. you mentioned already the case so for remains that in the a in means couldn't have been made international role by a unanimous. decision of the security council. now. why not send a u. n. mission including the p. five in for preventative looks to be five to ukraine? to the
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ukraine as a whole not just to the west and go crate. and if we for example would suggest that. the russians might veto that but if they do that they would. prevent the implementation of the old decisions. in the security council and thereby lose a lot of credibility so this is the kind of thing. how we could put pressure on the security council to take a reasonable position? address hello dear what what perspective do you see from broadening the representative nature of the security council. well i you know i think that there there. is a possibility of a some kind of a race that we have- you know anytime that there's a change in the structure of the security council. you have an opportunity for new congress we have a u. s. president that is going to be increasingly limited by the democratic majority in the house he's facing a lot of pressure at home --
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china's facing economic pressure russia's facing economic pressure the pressure is on those permanent security council members are increasing. outside of even what can be done diplomatically just economically and that will create a different environment that creates opportunities and i agree i think germany could play. a really good and positive and constructive role if it stands up. and and really speaks with one voice germany's had a very dysfunctional couple of years. elections. governments infighting perhaps to that will change now with the new leadership at the city level. i'm a little bit skeptical because it's not only a question of the political leadership it's also a question of the public debate in germany. and at the moment still this public debate as very much dominated by all these happy talking ideas about pacifism about playing nice and we don't have a real open debates that the world is a dangerous place -- that you should have.
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said you have national interest that you should also admits that you have national interest and that every country is fighting for its national interest and we should do so and we should also. have no illusions about a european unity in some cases we have european unity and others not so we have to to play in in this -- playbox and we have to analyze very sorely where we can. achieve alliances and and and when we come be afraid. to talk about this functionality of see united nations weight is dysfunctional and not being afraid that that somehow destroyed see it's the whole idea in germany we have until idealistic picture. of the united nations as if this would be the world government and the representation of a rule of law all over the world. and then we haveve had an instance of like libya of being at the head of the human rights council. and we had to tehran met being at the head of the
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women's rights council and north and then. yeah i'm at the head of the bed denuclearization calls as he sees i examples but you see it's absolutely ridiculous but it's sometimes ridiculous. and that we should have met and on the other hand we should try to use. the united nations weight can be constructive and we have to do something in order to make a constructiv. i think we have a good chance to do this in the coming two years since the security council -- because as you know we will soon have a elise eight three d. number two with france. and that that means that -- we and in general to push things ahead. n. dem i'd. like i can say from my own experience when i was -- ambassador to the united nations in two thousand to three in the security council. the then french ambassador
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and myself we've made a promise to go together in every case nobody will go without the other nobody would do anything against the other. and be able to always take joint action and blessed that has of course earn a certain effect because it. it it it makes it easier to get a majority of nine votes in the security council to come to a decision and it is also them together was france easier. to get a blocking minority. office seven votes -- so that the thehe other side cannot get the nine votes necessary for a decision so i think there is a good chance that the in these t o years. we will make our influence felt together was front. okay thank you for that optimistic observation said the u. n. currently has. fourteen peacekeeping operations in crisis reasons mostly it's about maintaining. a tenuous peace between two
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or more because face. the you in patients are in africa one is in mali. fifteen thousand you in soldiers and civilian workers including several germinates up there to support the twenty thirteen peace agreement between the government and tuareg rebel. since then war hasn't officially broken out bought violence hasn't ended. terrrrorist attacks still occurred in the u.. i in mission tamale man new small is one of the most deadly so fond of for a hundred un personnel have been killed. the you an observer mission- does need the golan heights was long considered a quiet john. that is until the syrian civil war erupted suddenly the buffer zone between israel and syria was swarming with rebels terrorists on the syrian army. the u. n. had to retreat. now israel has raised concerns that iranian troops
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could encroach upon the defense line. all the blue helmets fighting a losing battle. hello a losing battle how good is the eighty to you in a peacekeeping. well you know it has some successes and i think that you could argue that without the un peacekeeping efforts there would be more violenc. so even if it doesn't necessarily lead to peace it prevents further outbreaks of violence and the situation. in mali could be a whole lot worse -- and dad for that matter so is this the end of the situation throughout the middle east -- without the presence of the un peacekeepers and and in the end i think they can they can play a constructive role -- this is not a panacea not a bandaid when you talk about molly and we talk about germany's role in general of the united nations on a peacekeeping missions amber. i'm interested -- to come back to the point of both of you mentioned that
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the legacy of germany from the second world war. that it is still largely of a country that has a the sort of central to german society in german politics. is germany going to have to overcome that pacifist reconsiders germany going to have to shed that legacy. yeah i test over comments a doesn't has two sets legacy in the sense that we shouldn't. think about it and keep it in mind of course we should keep in mind it's a responsibility but it's not a responsibility not to act its responsibility. to act in order to find solutions and such cases like in mali is that even the german peacekeeping troops have only very limited function set they don't want to do anything which is connected with the risk. that the other one has to do as that is not as the right solution and but i have my doubts that this whole german society is really so. a peaceful s. often said that it's a belief in the political class that this is a better you you can't overcome if you're talking to german citizens all over
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the country and i'm doing that quite. often they are very realistic and they understand that of course it's not not the roles they are looking. for to have more trouble for german peacekeepers but the understands of recon plays a special role with different rules apply to the germans and to all of the nations and that is just an excuse. to have a more -- well not so difficult job and as this international concert. well i ate i agree. that -- there is a a certain difficulty in them and public germany's should engage in military action abroad. but i think it if it comes to peacekeeping operations this says nothing to do with enlarging the german influence and some not some other parts of the world. it is i think a measure to bring more peace and to to bring more justice to certain areas in the world. otherwise it canan be done d the last point the united nations that is often
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criticized as being inefficient. can only act if the member states are willing to make that contribution without that nothing will work. and therefore i think it is absolutely necessary that the big country like germany that is the second largest - donna all food resources for human environment for development at the center right in the international context and the fourth largest a contributor. to the cost of the united nations that we should engage if necessary also in military action to secure peace or to reestablish peace and security in other countries. okay we're running out of time slowly but surely and i'd like to get from each of you a proposal for the best way to move forward at the united nations. a package of reforms for the united nations the germany code. christopher mantra notre unrealistic wish list so we don't talk about reforming the security council but
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what germany could do is trying. to be more active in building alliances off countrieie which subscribe o the multilateral order and would love we later release the line. and what's on would also. give more support. and financial support and political support to the united nations solutions. international i agree will propose -- their common interests whether it's climate change whether its opposition to president trump whether it's you know anywhere you can get common interests together leverage that. to get both blocking minorities and here to get those votes together to move for a change and yeah in more brazen. sort of like a well i think one of the biggest problems. for this decision making in the security council is to p. five veto. now. we know that the beetle cannot be removed a lot.
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we could perhaps to do something that makes it easier to take the necessary decisions security council. and i think we should -- to try to convince people in the united nations and fifty five to use not to use the beetle in cases for cross violation of human rights. and the second. touring quickly please. and a second ed tool at justify veto in the general assembly if it is okay i wiwill go to leave it t out thank you for joining some hundred again shows for this week
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brent: this is "dw news," live from berlin. tonight, another nailbiter vote in the british parliament. theresa may's government survives a no-confidence vote. just 24 hours ago, the british prime minister's brexit deal was overwhelmingly rejected by parliament. today, she won a confidence vote by a margin of just 19. now she is vowing g to work with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle to make brexit mean brexit. ♪

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