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tv   Hallie Jackson Reports  MSNBC  December 7, 2021 12:00pm-1:00pm PST

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(gasps) ♪ did it work? only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ spider-man no way home in theaters december 17th . we're coming on the air and taking you right over to the white house briefing room. you see it there on the left side of your screen. any minute we expect to see national security adviser and jen psaki, the first on-camera comments and first time reporters get to ask questions after that call between president biden and russian president vladimir putin as we are learning new details about that new warning to putin's virtual face about what would
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happen if russia invades ukraine. the conference and allies this afternoon. we are live with the latest on this high profiles, high stakes conversation. i'm halle jackson in washington. here to start us off, nbc news' chief foreign correspondent richard engle in ukraine. also with us, former cia director john brennan and senior national security and intelligence analyst. districtor brennan, i'm going to turn to our reporters. mike, are you near steps from that briefing room. we already know some of the highlights about this video discussion between president biden and president putin. what are the outstanding questions you have for the national security adviser who we will see in a matter of minutes here. >> reporter: it's important that jake sullivan will be in the briefing room to offer the white house's fuller readout a. lot was made in the early hours as that meeting was beginning just after 10:00 the first pictures we were getting, the first picture was from russia, itself. obviously, this is a moment for president vladimir putin who
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knows the propaganda wars very well to get a foot hold in the conversation. so we saw that photo that showed jake sullivan throughout and among the questions we have for him really deal with the third building on the white house readout. it was generic in terms of as it put it the economic and other measures the president threatened president putin with in the event of military escalation. what do we define as military escalation? if you show the mass building up of russian forces on three different borders of ukraine. haven't we already reached that point? that's certainly a comment from not just republicans on capitol hill. we may be past a key moment here. then also as we know our broader agenda on the table for these two men today, including the iran nuclear talks. we remember, of course, russia was a part of that p-plus 51 group in the iranian nuclear
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deal, president trump pulled the u.s. out of it. the u.s. is trying to get into it. russia is a key part of it. the other tensions how much do we hear from issues like cyber warfare, disinformation. the other destabilizing actions we know russia has been responsible for and has been a serious concern to the u.s. >> the press secretary walking out. we're obviously second from hearing from jake i jake cull van, in a couple of sentences, what will you be listening for? >> reporter: well, we'll be listening for how strong they make this argument around are they willing to back this up? because there is the danger that they claim to have talked very tough to putin and then in a month or two, those actions aren't backed up. >> i told you two sentence, thank you for those two. i appreciate that i want to turn now to the national security adviser in the briefing room. >> straight forward with president putin as he always is. he replicated america's support
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for ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. he told him directly if rush further invites, the united states and our european allies would respond. we would provide additional help to the ukrainians above that which we are providing. we would fortify our nato allies additional capabilities in response to such an escalation. he said diplomacy and our allies would engage in a conversation to cover our strategic concerns with russia and russia's strategic concerns. we managed to do this at the height of the cold war. we developed mechanisms to help produce instability and increased transparency. we have done this in the post-cold war era, the osce and other mechanisms. there is no reason we can't do that forward. going forward, provided that we are operating in a context of deescalation rather than escalation. the united states, as we have been for some time, is also prepared to support efforts to
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advance the minske agreement. the discussion was direct and straight forward. there was a lot of give and take there was no finger wagging, but the president was crystal clear about where the united states stand on all of these issues. we believed from the beginning of this administration there is no substitute for direct dialogue between true leaders. that is true in spade when it comes to the u.s.-russia relationship so president biden welcomed the opportunity to engage clearly and directly with president putin. indeed, as president biden said after his meeting in geneva in june with president putin, where we have differences, i want president putin to understand why i say what i say. and why i do what i do. and how we'll respond to specific kind of actions that harm america's interests and
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indeed harm our allies' interests. that's exactly what he did today. after the call, he spoke with the leaders of france, germany, italy and the uk to debrief them on the call and consult on a way forward. our team is presently debriefing the embassies of nato members, and key indo pacific allies. the president will be speaking shortly with the leaders of both houses of congress and talking to them about ways in which the administration and the congress can work together on a bipartisan basis to stand up for american interests and values and stand behind our friends and partners. president biden will be speaking with president zelenski. the president and president putin agreed our teams will follow up on the issues discussed today. the president and his european colleagues agree that our teams will work together to ensure that our engagement with russia
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going forward, both involves and is closely coordinated with, european allied partners so we are all on the same page. there is a lot of work to do in the days ahead. as we pursue diplomatic channels. we will prepare for all contingencies as we have been doing for weeks now, including through the preparation of specific responses to russian escalation should they be required. specific, robust, clear responses should they be required. that's where things stand as we speak and with that, i'd be ha ep to take your questions. yes. >> can you elaborate on what you said about fortifying allies on the eastern flank. is sending u.s. troops on the table here? >> so, what i'm referring to there is in the event that there is a further invasion into ukraine, a military escalation into ukraine, obviously, many of our partners on the eastern front, baltic allies, romania, poland, other countries will be increasingly concerned about
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security and territorial integrity of their countries. they will be seeking, we expect, additional capabilities and potentially additional deployments and the united states will be looking to respond positively to those things in the event that there is a further incursion into ukraine. >> does that mean the american public should be seeing american troops on the ground in that region in the coming weeks and months if vladimir putin goes through with this? >> i don't know i would say bracing for. since we currently have rotationalal troops in the baltics. the presence of american military service members in rotational fashion in these countries is not something new. the question here is not that about whether or not the united states is going to send american service members to the territory of our nato allies. we do that as a matter of course. the question is what additional capablies can we provide to ensure that they feel strong and
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confident in their own sovereignty and integrity. it is those additional capabilities on the table in those countries should russia move in ukraine and in a more decisive way. yes. >> i think in the days leading up to this call. the white house and administration repeatedly, their assessment so far is putin had not made a decision over whether to invade ukraine. did president biden get clear from him on whether or not that is his decision? >> we still do not believe president putin has made a decision. what president biden did is layout clearly the consequences if he chooses to move. he laid out an alternative path, an alternative path fundamentally keeping with the basic principles and propositions that guided america and the euro atlantic in the past 70 years. ultimately we will see through the days ahead through actions not through words what course of action russia continues to take. >> sorry, one quick follow up. in your statement of the call,
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you said that president biden told them the united states is ready to take strong economic measures and other actions, if needed. what are those other measures that the united states has referred to? >> i just spelled those out in my opening remarks, both the supply and provision of additional material as well as the additional deployment of assets and capabilities to nato members in the event that there is a further incursion. >> what are the strong economic measures and how are they different from the ones you put on russia in 2014 which didn't deter russia from taking crimea. what are they and what do you think they'll work bet their time? >>ly look in the eye and tell you as president biden looked president putin in the eye and told him today that things we did not do in 2014, we are prepared to do now. now, in terms of the specifics, we would refer to communicate that directly to the russians, to not negotiate if public, do not telegraph our punches.
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we are laying out for the russians in some detail the types of measures we have in mind. we are coordinating with our european allies. we have experts from the treasury department, the state department and national security council in daily contact with the key capitals in brussels to work through that package of measures. you think it is not profitable for us to layout the specifics of it standing here at this podium today. >> thank you. did president putin ask for president biden to commit to not allow nato or ukraine to join nato? and did president biden make any kind of concession as a reduced u.s. presence or anything on nato and ukraine's membership? >> i'm not going to characterize president putin's side of the conversation or go into details in terms of what they discussed because i think they need to have that space to be able to have robust, change. but i will tell you clearly and directly, he made no clear
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commitments or concessions, he stands by the count should choose who they associate with. >> how quickly can that be delivered? >> we have an ongoing pipeline that delivers virus forms of defensive assistance to ukraine. indeed, there was the delivery of defensive assistance to ukraine just very recently. that will continue. so it really depends on the type of form, but this should not be thought of as a circumstance in which you completely turn off the dial or turn on the dial. there is an ongoing pipeline, whether that pipeline needs additional supplements as we go forward will depend on how circumstances evolve. yes. >> thank you so much. have you said that the administration will take action if russia does escalate militarily. satellite images show hundreds of russian troops are amassing
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on the border with ukraine. why wait to take action? >> our view is the fundamental process in lockstep with the european allies is to deter a russian military invasion of further territory of ukraine and the measures we have put on the table are designed to show the russian government that should it choose to engage if such an invasion, there will be those witness. that for us is a clear and decisive lay down and we also believe that there should be an alternative pathway by which we can make progress on diplomacy in the don boss through the minsk agreement and norm andy and address nato concerns and russian security concerns to a larger measurement consistent with the way we dealt with over
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the past 30 years. >> are they accusing president biden truly such the fact that sanctions were eads on nord stream 2 and the withdrawal from afghanistan, which was widely criticized. how do you respond to that criticism that president biden is being too weak to mr. putin? smr i think three points. the first is that vladimir putin standing behind then president mcdebta in 2008 invaded georgia when we had 150,000 troops deployed in iraq and afghanistan. the question between our foreign wars and calculus when it comes to the post-soviet space, there is not good evidence to support that. number two when it comes to nord stream 2. the fact is the gas is not flowing through the stream 2 pipeline, which means it is not operating. which means it is not leverage for putin. indeed, it is leverage for the
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west because if vladimir putin wants to see gas flow through that pipeline, he may not want to take the risk of invading ukraine. number three, the president has shown over the course of the past eight months, he will to what he says he will do in response to russian action. he said he will impose costs for novale and solar wind, if vladimir putin takes the same action, she not doing this to save irrattle, to make idle threats. he is dock it to prepare and direct with both the russians and with our european allies about the best way forward. we think this stands the best chance alongside a pathway to deescalate, to aver a potential crisis with respect to an invasion of ukraine. >> in repeat days, starting on new years ago did putin bring
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this up and did president biden assert those talks. >> again i'm not getting into the details or characterize what president putin said. and i will say that formal agreements or formal treaties were not on the table in the conversation today. but the straight forward notion that the united states flanked by our european allies and partners will be prepared to talk to russia about strategic issues in the european theater. that was on the table. and we are prepared to do that, as we have been prepared to do that throughout the cold war and post-cold war eras. what the right mechanism is, what the agenda and comes of that that is all to be worked out as we see how things proceed in the coming days. >> through october, what hasn't the u.s. given additional material to ukraine yet? this has been escalating for weeks? why wait?
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>> as i pointed out in response to an earlier question. we are continuing to deliver defensive material assistance to ukraine. we have done so just in the past few days. yes. >> the kremlin readout president biden lift all restrictions on diplomatic mixes opposed in repeat news. you can say whether president biden is opened to or something he spoke to on the phone? >> president biden is open to creating functioning diplomatic missions in both countries. but he didn't make any specific commitments with respect to the best pathway to do that. what he said was his leaders, president biden and putin should direct their teams to figure out how we ensure the embassy platform in moscow is able to function effectively and as we believe the embassy platform here in washington is able to operate effectively. >> a follow up on nord stream, are you urging the incoming government to threaten to pull
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support for this pipeline if there is a further incursion into ukraine? >> we had intensive discussions with both the outgoing and incoming german governments on the issue of nordstream 2, i'm not going to characterize it beyond that, other than it is an object of great priority for the biden administration. >> sorry. so, it is being watched by a number of other advisories, including china's president xi jinping. some described a fight mayor scenario where president putin invades ukraine and also simultaneously our president xi uses forests to unify taiwan and china. is the u.s. prepared to deal with such a scenario? >> the united states is going to take every action that we can take from the point of view of both deterrence and diplomacy to make sure the taiwan scenario you just described never happens
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and to try to avert the invasion and deter the invasion into ukraine. that is the object of our policy right now. those are the steps we are taking. that's what president biden is doing and the messages that he's sending to president putin and with respect to taiwan, the sum total of the efforts we've undertaken over the course of the past eight months in the indo pacific have also all be geared towards avoiding any kind of scenario, where china chooses to run freely. >> are there any thoughts on the russian side to use leverage to change iran's division? >> the president and president putin had a good discussion on the iran issue. it was productive. russia and the united states actually worked well together, even in intense circumstance back in the 2014-2015 to reduce the action. this is where russia and the united states can insure closely to make sure iran never gets
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additional weapons. >> why do you deny there is troop buildup. putting out information and change the tone after the meeting? >> so i'm not going to characterize the decision-making of the ukrainian government only to say is that we are in daily contact with senior officials in the ukrainian government. i am if nearly daily contact with my counterpart in the ukrainian government. we believe we are seeing a common threat picture here and our message to our friends in the ukrainian government and as our message was today to president putin is that the united states supports the minsk process, wants to see progress made towards a cease-fire and confidence measures. that is the best way forward. yeah. >> is the world safer today after that conversation between the two leaders or less safe? and i have a follow-up to your answer. >> so all i will say is that the
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ultimate metric for whether the world is safer or not is facts on the ground and actions taken in this case by russia. let's see, we are prepared to deal with any contingency as i said at the outset. i'm not going to make predictions or characterizations, i will say that president biden will continue to do all of the necessary prudent planning for a variety of different pathways. >> the follow-up. >> the communication is going to redeem [ inaudible ] lifting sanction, frees many of dollars to the federal regime that will be spread to the folks when the hezbollah became stronger from the money obama gave to this particular militia. so, is this going to happen? are you going to address -- to understand at the table of the association? >> so i'd make three points in response to that. since donald trump made the decision to pull the united states out of the iran nuclear deal in 20 earnings hezbollah
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has continued to menace lebanon in the region. iran's proxies in iraq, syria and yemen have continued to move forward. not beings in the deal has hardly been a solution to the proxy. second, nothing stops the united states' capacity to deal with those proxies. we are prepared to do so. in fact, in response to attacks on american forces in iraq, the united states has twice under president biden taken action, direct military action in response to those proxies, in addition to undertaking sanctions and third, ultimately, iran with a nuclear weapon is going to be a greater menace in partnerships with its pro,ies than iran without one. so it is our determination to make sure they never get a nuclear weapon in diplomacy. >> the iranians announce communication, the administration criticized last
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week. last year, it is the reverse of progress. what makes you think that or hope that actually they are serious this time? and how much over time are you willing to do it? and secondly, you can't negotiate with your allies and coordinate with them. you can't -- [ inaudible ] as we speak so is this a -- the urge to do it or to reach or give a coordinated effort to the united states? >> i'll put this quite simply, the more iran demonstrates a lack of seriousness at the negotiation table, the more unity there is among the p-5 plus one and the more they will be exposed as the isolated party in this negotiation. so really the ball is in iran's court as to whether they want to show up and demonstrate whether they will be serious or not. >> looking forward to a meeting with our president later this
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week, are there any -- in ukraine might be able to find a way to end this peacefully? >> so again as i mentioned before, we're in constant contact with senior levels of the ukrainian government. secretary blinken just spoke with president zelenski yesterday. they have come forward with constructive idea for how to move the diplomacy forward. we're encouraging that those are steps they're taking. they're asking the united states to support them in trying to get towards a cease-fire and then ultimately get down the track of diplomatic resolution. we believe that that is good and positive and i believe that president biden and zelenski will discuss that diplomatic path. >> with regard to nord stream 2, you said they should risk the pipe line being turned down. have you made clear to allies you will, in fact, sanction the remaining entities involved in
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that further if there is an invasion and have you received any assurances from germany when chancellor murkel was here, there was a discussion about what to do if russia wasn't honest with the gas supplies. but nothing came of. that even though there were some pretty saber rattling by the russians in recent months. have you now received assurances from germany that they will, in fact, not proceed with that? >> so, in response to an earlier question, i said i wasn't going to get into the specific sanctions measures that we intend to impose. although, we will be communicating those directly to our russian counterparts and we will be working through them detail by detail with our european counterparts. what i will tell you is the subject of the future of nordstream 2 in the context of an invasion of ukraine via russia in the coming weeks is a topic of utmost priority. it has been discussed
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thoroughly. i will leave it for that for today. >> how does relation between the united states and russia affect african countries and my second question is, how do you summarize this meeting? it was productive? it was good? >> it was a useful meeting. it was useful in the sense that it allowed president biden to layout in clear and direct and candid terms where the united states stands on this issue. and to do so, having coordinated closely with his allies and partners beforehand and to talk about a potential way forward. now on the question of the african partners this is true the world over, the attempt to change the territories of another countries by force should be vigorously opposed by every country in the world. one more. >> what was putin's demeanor over the course of the two hours? did he seem any willingness to
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back down? >> again i just make it a practice not to characterize the other side's position. he can speak for himself. i would say that his demeanor, like president biden's demeanor was direct and straight forward. again as i said in my opening remarks, there was a real discussion. it was give and take. it was not speeches. it was back and forth. president putin was deeply engaged and i'm going to leave it at that in terms of trying to characterize where he s. all i can tell you is there is a task coming out of that meeting by the two presidents to their teams to start talking about how we might think about the diplomatic path. the president being clear throughout that diplomacy has to come in the context of deescalation rather than escalation. now we will watch what unfolds in the coming days. thank you, guys. okay. thank you, jake. welcome back any time. i think i can speak for the group.
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okay. i have a couple of items for all of you at the top. i wantled to just preview tomorrow. the president will be headed to kansas city, missouri, where he will continue highlighting how the bipartisan infrastructure law delivers for missouriians, by rebuilding roads and bridges, upgrading public transit, water structure and good paying union jobs. the strip a part of the president and administration nationwide tour that demonstrates how the president is following through on his promise to forge bipartisan consensus and democracy can deliver big wins, while there he will be engaging --? you, of course, have been listening to the white house briefing and national security adviser blake sullivan release details about the phone call today between president biden and russian president vladimir putin video conference we should say. the white house press secretary is speak on more topics now. we will continue to listen in, in case she has news on the russia front.
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i want to bring in nbc news' chief foreign correspondent richard engle in kiev, ukraine and john brennan and senior national security intelligence analyst. listen, a lot of headlines coming out of that, q&a session, fairly thorough from the national security adviser who characterized this conversation as direct and straight forward on the part of both leaders. that president biden he emphasized laid out an alternative path. interesting noting the white house, the president, doesn't believe that putin has made up his mind on whether to even vad ukraine formally or not. that is why president biden laid out a different alternative essentially. you heard this discussion was not speeches, jake sullivan was clear. this was back and forth a. give and take. president biden looked vladimir putin in the eye, things we didn't do after the invasion of crimea, we are prepared to do now. i want to come to you in a
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second, richard, let me come to you. if you were in that briefing, we were getting the official kremlin version of events here. walk us through that and what stood out by national security sullivan so far? >> reporter: first all start with the russian readout. perhaps it was coordinated but maybe it was. but it came out more or less at the same time. as soon as sullivan began to speak, it dropped in russian a long readout from the kremlin, how it saw this call. first it started talking about how it is actually ukraine that is provoking a crisis with russia. it describes how there is a region inside ukraine dumbas controlled by russian separatists. it is a region russia encouraged ukrainians to break away from this country and form on
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allegiance with the call with president biden described how ukrainian troops are taking provocative steps threatening this sovereign area many analysts are watching these autonomous zones closely. they worry if russia were to cross the border and launch some sort of invasion of ukraine, it would very likely use these zones in the to cross over the border in dumas inside ukraine. first of all, that response talked about the russian enclaves and how it is ukrainian forces threatening them. then it talked about more about the conversation around i'll quote some right now. this is not a direct translation. it is our trance lake so it
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says, joseph biden for his part emphasized the allegedly threatening nature of movements of russian troops near the ukrainian borders and outlines sanction the united states and its allies would be ready to apply in the event of a further escalation situation. in response, vladimir putin stressed the responsibility should not be shifted on to russia and says it is nato expanding into ukraine and is building up etc. military potential on our borders. therefore, russia is seriously interested in obtaining reliable legally-fixed guarantees, excluding the expansion of nato in the eastern direction and deployment of offensive systems in the states adjacent to russia. and that is vladimir putin and russia's main claim here. they want fixed guarantees that ukraine won't become a part of nato and that the united states and nato won't deploy offensive
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first strike weapons into ukraine or into other countries near the russian border. >> you heard jake sullivan saying that formal treaties, formal agreements were not on the table today. but the notion that the u.s. and etc. allies would have a dialogue with russia was on the table. he gave a little more clarity to this idea of economic measures as you and i talk bd about be every the briefing and made that reference to 2014. i know you have been covering joe biden for a very long time. take us back. that is interesting context here. right? i know there was some reporting that then vice president biden wanted to go perhaps a little bit further than the rest of the administration did at the time. talk us through that and what signals you read from what you heard from the national security adviser. >> reporter: if you take it back to the questions at the top of the show, we heard some clear answers there, the first in terms of what more specific, excuse me, specificity, were they willing to offer in terms of what those economics sanctions were.
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jake sullivan simply said that there were options that were on the table in 2014 as far as economic sanctions in response to the annexation of crimea, that the u.s. did not take at that point in the obama administration that were now on the table at this stage. i think that speaks as to what you were referring to, vice president biden at the time was heavy engagely engaged. and there was clear i think there were options that he might have supported that were not ultimately taken that are now being considered. now in terms of military professional support, it's short of a u.s. involvement here. you saw them refer to further assets being deployed to not just ukraine in terms of military assistance, but our nato allies regional neighbors in order to signal our effort to try to deter russian invasion. now as it relates to what richard was talking about from and nato membership, you will
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remember in june, when we were covering the nato summit in brussels. president ze lenski caused a scamble indicating nato leaders green lit a further step towards nato membership for ukraine. the u.s., the other nato allies stated clearly in their communique that was not the case. they referred to a 2000 agreement that laid out a pathway for ukraine to potentially join nate to but they were far short of the steps needed to do so it was clear in sullivan's response, even as far as ukraine may be from being a nato member, they're not willing to make that a barring ching chip in this case. >> you heard jake sullivan describe the conversation as useful. based on what you have heard so far, director, do you believe it was successful? did joe biden do what he needed to do? >> well, i think it certainly was useful, important at a time like this when there are escalating tensions in the area that putin and president biden have a dialogue to talk about it so i think jake sullivan made it
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very clear the purpose of this talk from the standpoint of president biden was to deescalate the situation and deter further russian aggression against ukraine. he did that by laying out what the consequences would be. that's very typical of president biden. he laid down as a matter of fact if you do x, we will then have to respond in certain ways and laid out what in terms of sanctions, additional support to ukraine as well as an augmentation of nato forces along those border states, without getting into the specific details. i do think what they want to do is make sure putin understands there will be significant costs far in excess of what happened when they annexed crimea in 2014. i think it was importance. there were discussions to try to find a way forward. my concern is and with the russian readout, this will be a very strong stumbling block. if the russians are going to insist on some type of legally enforceable guarantee that
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ukraine will not join nato. ukraine has taken a number of steps publicly saying that it very much wants to join nato. which is what is worrying vladimir putin. even though nato does not have on its docket a decision to bring ukraine into the organization. it's clear zelenski and his advisers want to make this move towards the west so it can have the embrace of the other nato countries and specifically the united states. so i do think it was a very important discussion. i this i we have yet to determine whether or not we're going to see a deescalation of the military tensions or if putin is going to go forward and try to press the issue. >> so let's look ahead a little bit. the white house is previewing this call. what does president biden need to do in that conversation, director? >> well, i think as we know, there are multiple audiences here. that president biden is trying to ensure they receive the right page.
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there is congress, the american people, nato allies, the ukrainians and russia. what i think president biden is going to say to president zelenski, it was a very good conversation we had with vladimir putin. that putin now understands clearly what the united states will do and the united states is not going to make any type of commitment that ukraine will not join nato at some points in the future. at the same time, i think president biden will want the ukrainians to do what they can also to deescalate. if there are any provocative actions that the ukrainian military is taking along the areas of the dumbas. this needs to be down. nothing ined a veteransly lead to escalation of those military tensions. dumas. >> great reporting, thank you for staying on top of all those developments. we will see you throughout the afternoon and tonight. we appreciate it. i want to go to breaking
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news that just come into us on the january 6th investigation. now a new threat of contempt charges against former chief of staff mark meadows. just in the last six or seven minutes now after former trump chief of staff mark meadows says he will not cooperate. here's where things stand in the landscape, former pence chief of staff mark short says he will cooperate. steve bannon not cooperating. we learned when his criminal trial i trial will start the warning from the inspector general there is much work to be done at the agency nearly a year after that insurrection. i want to bring in garrett haik. garrett, breaking news, not entirely unsuspected. after we learned mark meadow, by his side, when this was all happening in the days up to and on january 6th, not cooperating and now it looks like he may
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very well be charged with contempt of congress and what's interesting, garrett, is a little shade i picked up at the end of the statement from the select committee from the chairman benny thompson that the select committee if meadows doesn't show for a deposition tomorrow that's scheduled will be left with no choice but to advance contempt proceedings and recommend the body in which many meadows once served refer him for criminal prosecution, pointing out he is a former member of this body here, garrett. >> reporter: i think that's also poipth out perhaps mark meadows has to lose than steven bannon for thumbing his nose. meadows has a book out. he's a former chief of staff. the kind of person who might have potentially more of a future in politics, that's harder to do if you got a contempt charge on your record. there is a number of steps that would have to happen before we get there. the committee would have to vote to advance this recommendation. the full house would have to vote to recommend a contempt
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charge to the federal justice department here. they would be cleared for it as well. >> sorry. those two steps seem if past is precedence here. it seems more than likely those at least first two steps would happen? >> reporter: ohching i think those first two steps l. if you allow me to pass the baton to mr. williams here, i would add mark meadows has a stronger case from the privileged grounds than steven bannon. if he can run out the clock, that's just as good from the perspective of those trying not to the testify here. >> let me middleman that baton over to you pete williams. when you look back at steve bannon, we learned the trial is set right now to happen in the summer. he was referred to, of course, through this criminal prosecution, the doj decided to move forward with that mark meadows, right, may be a different story. she somebody serving in the
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white house, very close at the time january 6th went down, his claims of executive privilege as garrett knows, seems stronger. >> yes. i mean, this is a decision that the u.s. attorney's office will have to make. if congress finds they are in contempt. there are two ways, executive privilege is strongest for the advisers in the president's immediate orbit and nobody is closer than that than the chief of staff. le would seem to have a strong executive privilege argument. on the other hand, the courts long said only applies to discussions of a president's official duties. so, question, is talking about trying to subvert the results of the election a part of a president's official duties? no matter whether the president truly honestly believed that the election was somehow rigged and that he actually won, even if he still believed that, if is it a part of his firm duties to try to frustrate the counting of the
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vote on january 6th or whatever else the committee is looking into? is there is sort of two arguments here. but it's certainly true that the u.s. attorney's office here has never prosecuted anyone who was working in the government who cited privilege as a defense. bannon wasn't in the government but asserted executive privilege since. this is a potentially more difficult decision for the u.s. attorney's office to make. >> garrett, when you look at the message or the signal that this makes, again, listen, when we heard, remember, mark meadows it seems was not cooperating. then it seems he was to a degree. we learned actually he's not cooperating. there is his deposition tomorrow. based on what he said so far, not going to show up for that obviously, that window is still opened for another 24 hours. then these contempt charges will likely move forward in the committee as you described in the house. there has been much made about the message or the signal that this may send to others who the
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january 6th select committee would like to be forth coming with details. how effective do you think this really, is given what we have seen so far? >>. >> reporter: you know, we're going to have to find out? this has been a per accept it problem for this committee where the big fish tend to slip off the hook. they delay or they know muddy the waters. ped doughs provided some documents, according to committee. there are levels of cooperation. not everyone has the same financial or legal resources as do mark meadows or stephen bannon, there are a lot of lower level people could be looking at contempt charges and saying, i don't want to hire a lawyer, even if i might win, it's not worth it financially or the hit to my reputation so the threat of contempt charges may well be useful for people that know useful things but aren't the
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bold faced names with the deeper pockets. those folks continue to evade this committee thus far. >> garrett haik, pete williams. thanks to both of you breaking in with that breaking news developing in the last couple minutes. are you watching it on msnbc reports. believe it or not, more breaking news, unrelated to january 6th. righted very much to the nation's economy with new votes just annoyanced, as leader shrngs we work a complicated debt default. we got new reporting on that, wheeling see if one senate republican is on board with it. senator mike braun joining us live. h it senator mike braun joining us live deon, hand it over. now how does that make you feel? like a part of me is missing. gabrielle? this old spice fiji hand and body lotion has me smoother than ever. that's what it does.
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♪ say it's all right ♪ ♪ say it's all right, it's all right ♪ ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ now listen to the beat ♪ ♪ kinda pat your feet ♪ ♪ it's all right ♪ ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ oh, it's all right ♪
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if you haven't paid attention to capitol hill, you pay have serious whiplash. the house will decide today on raising the ceiling. the newest plan after senate leaders in both parties threw out the idea of tying it to the annual defense bill that lasted
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about .35 seconds be every the bipartisan backlash started. senate leaders saying their vote on this whole plan thing will happen on thursday. me bring in capitol hill correspondent le yan called well. talk about developments that have broken in the last little bit. >> yeah, there's been lots of back and forth and also, this is very complicate. democrats did not want to do this through this reconciliation process adding it to their build back better plan. they say that was difficult and messy and didn't want to do it. republicans, they did not want to get out of the way, allow a 60-vote threshold vote to pass so the democrats could lift the debt limit all on their own. so now what's happening is they are doing this crazy process where they add a rules change to
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a medicare bill that involves the debt limit that has to be signed by the president and then the senate can go and they can lift the debt limit with just a simple majority 51 votes. so these legislative gymnastics are an attempt to appease both sides. meanwhile, republicans are going to have to put a name on it and lift it by at least $2 trillion and republicans are still going to have to offer the votes to change the rules for this one-time debt limit vote. now, both leaders, mcconnell and schumer, are claiming victory. listen to how schumer framed it today. >> our goal has been to increase the debt limit. we want a simple majority without a risky, lengthy process. and it looks like the republicans will help us facilitate that. so we feel very good about where
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we're headed on debt ceiling. >> so it's expected to take place on thursday and they would come back and lift the debt limit hopefully by the 15th. >> i want to bring in republican senator, mike brawn. thanks for being back on the show. good afternoon. let me pick up. assuming this reaches the senate in way that's being laid out, a vote linking the debt limit role, change to a medicare bill. is this something you would intend to support? >> first of all, i think she described it as well as you can. it's going to be easy for me since i've been here, i voted against raising the debt ceiling and i found being successful on main street, you had to do things in the moment that made it easy in the mid and long-term. i don't want to get too philosophical here, but when i
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got here a little under three years ago, we were $18 trillion in debt. now we're nearing 30. and i voted against raising debt limits or doing crs because it's a symptom of a broken system. we don't do budgeting. we keep spending to the tune of trillion dollar structural deficit, soon to be 1.5 trillion. you've got to sooner or late erat say that this is crazy and that we're really dumping a heavy load on our kids and grand kids. so i'll be voting against it, but they won't worry about me because i'm a handle of three or four that vote out of principle. not whatever you're going to do to get to the next year. on the cr, that's stuff we should have done before september 30th. and we're still wrestling with that to boot. >> so senator, you made your position clear on that. let me ask you about another vote that's in the works
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sometime in the next 24 hours. the vax or test rule. that is expected tomorrow. is that right? then i want to ask you about it. >> we don't have a time on the floor yet, but everything i'm hearing is we'll vote on that tomorrow, yes. >> it appears and our team's latest reporting is that senator manchin and now perhaps senator testor, two democrats, look likely to vote with you. do you expect any others to join you here? >> i've spoken to three or four others. i would say any swing state senator, anybody that is listening to their people back home, this doesn't poll when it's vaccine or job. even when you say vaccine or get tested or job, most of the people that are digging in regardless of their reasons, aren't viewing it as an option. they consider it the same. most axios did a poll where only
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14% of americans agree it should be done in an ultimatum form. the courts have weighed in. i think that's falling apart and i think this is a formal way it gets every senator, every house member on record. so i think it's going to make it tough for biden to keep pushing forward when it was a bad idea to begin with. >> well, i have to tell you, doesn't seem tough to the white house because just before you came on the air and we had this conversation, white house press secretary, jen psaki, was asked about this and said that president biden will veto this if it comes to his desk and even looking at the numbers you have. say you have at best 56. say even 57 senators who vote on this. still not a veto proof majority. is this anything other than signal sending or messaging on your part? because ultimately, it's not going to cross the finish line, it seems. >> it would have to cascade into something more than we've got now. >> okay, so you acknowledge
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that. >> it moved in two weeks where i got every republican on it. now we got two democratic senators. there got to be at least 30 swing district democrats that are wondering do they want to run against this in 2022 or do what their people probably want them to do and not endorse this heavy hand of vaccine or lose your job. >> i have 30 seconds left in this show. i'm sorry, but i have to say, you know this isn't, nobody's being forced to get the vaccine here. right? there is a weekly testing option. so people have the option, employers have the option, to test out, right? and instead just do weekly testing. why is that not sufficient for you? >> you need to talk to the people that are going to make the decision, whether it's right or wrong for their own well-being, healthwise or job, they equate testing and getting the vaccine as one in the same. you throw the ultimatum to boot. that's what's driving those folks to dig in on it. they need to check and see what
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their people say in their districts. >> we have a lot of breaking news this hour. i wish we had more time. i very much have to go. thank you very much, senator mike braun. vaccine and testing, two different things. thanks to all of you for watching. deadline white house starts right after the break. deadline white house starts right after the break. r car ins. ow! i'm ok! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ only in theaters december 17th. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event.
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