Skip to main content

tv   The Big Picture With Thom Hartmann  RT  June 13, 2014 7:00pm-8:01pm EDT

7:00 pm
ex-girlfriend still tends to poetry keep. ignoring. the post. office. to your facebook news feed. but. i didn't know if you. did you know the price is the only industry specifically mention in the constitution. that's because a free and open press is critical to our democracy which recall folks. will. never go on i'm sorry and on this show we reveal the picture of what's actually going on and we go beyond identifying the truth rational debate real discussion critical issues facing them up ready to join the movement then welcome to the.
7:01 pm
blog market of washington d.c. and tonight we talk to one man for the hour and one of the hottest topics of our time in a special edition of conversations with great minds. for tonight's conversations with great minds i'm joined by one of america's most distinguished scholars of russian politics someone who has advised former president george h.w. bush and is a friend of former soviet president mikhail gorbachev dr steven cohen is a professor of russian studies and history emeritus at new york university and a professor of politics emeritus at princeton university best known among historians of russia for his pioneering work on bolshevik leader current proposer cohen is also contributing editor at the nation magazine where at the nation dot com his most recent article cold war again who's responsible has provoked both
7:02 pm
national and international discussion he's also the author of a number of books including failed crusade america and the tragedy of post communist russia and his latest soviet fates and lost alternatives from stalin ism to the new cold war professor stephen cohen joins us now from our new york studios those are cohen welcome back to the program. thank you tom thanks for joining us i'd like to start if you don't mind with you what got you interested in studying russia. i have to say at the outset the on very grateful to be with you that in no way do i think of myself as a great mind i would say it's cluttered mind cluttered with russia where i've lived so many years off and on clutter with the vents in my own country clustered with inner city basketball tournaments i run my ten and under team isn't looking too
7:03 pm
good is the tournament approaches and cluttered with three kids and four grandchildren that's is only great in the sense there's a lot to think about but russia has been in the forefront of my mind now for forty five or fifty years and it began and there's some dispute about how it began russians who believe in fate sued by say this was all my fate i see it as a kind of accident and i grew up in kentucky small segregated town in kentucky i went to college at indiana across the river one day a professor said have you ever been anywhere and i said i've been to cincinnati he said no i mean some place meaningful so he sent me off to birmingham england when i was a young man to study and i saw as i was approaching the end of my time there a sign that said to go to the soviet union for three hundred dollars which was exactly what i have and so i got on a ship and went to the show the union went to five cities for thirty days and
7:04 pm
russia then was then awakening from stalin's terror it was the khrushchev there and there was something i didn't speak a word of russian i knew very little about it but there was something that resonated and i went back to indiana and i hadn't even known that they had a major russian studies program and so it began one thing leading to another on the columbia for a ph d. on to princeton professor and then beginning in the seventies. living as best i could in moscow two or three months a year until eight hundred eighty two when the soviet authorities wouldn't let me reenter the country. when he came to power in eighty five returned my visa from eighty five to the nineties i was living there with my wife katrina vanden who were the editor of the nation and eventually our daughter nico very often in the late ninety's know i was at a rip less frequently but people have said and it's true that though i am a passionate american patriot i do have two countries because our special much time in russia develops from many friends and it all began either by accident or it was
7:05 pm
my fate it's a fascinating story fasten a world view before we get into i want to talk with you about what's been going on in the ukraine you and i have talked about this a number of times on my radio program and at some length but before we get to that and in fact i think in some ways this is even related to that i wanted to talk about what's at the top of the news tonight which is the the. the maliki government in iraq perhaps falling to sunni nationalists called extremists and terrorists it seems to me more nationalist might be a more appropriate term and and and those same people taking on the bashir assad government in syria. and syria being backed by iran and now of the maliki government being backed by iran and in the united states finding itself in this odd position of if we support the insurgents in syria we're supporting the
7:06 pm
same people who are against the maliki government who are supporting in iraq and and then russia playing a role in the connection between the maliki government and the assad government in. iran and first of all is my characterization of this. makes sense to you and then secondly please just as i'm curious your thoughts. are not great enough brain to know much about the middle east and specifically about iraq but as i watch what's been happening in iraq the collapse of the government if that's what it is. some obvious thoughts come to mind. one is the one's heart goes out to all those american families who lost. sons and daughters and fathers and mothers in an iraq war to create. a system that was
7:07 pm
supposed to be stable and friendly and good for the world and now it's all undone that's the first and second thing is that the middle east doesn't fit the american washington's one fits all conception we've seen in american perceptions and policies i mean washington's. thwarted in the so-called arab spring. in egypt in syria in iraq. and the third thought i have is and this is where my patriotic passion comes into play i am convinced that the most essential partner for american national security in all of these areas from around to syria to afghanistan and beyond is the kremlin currently occupied by people and the way the united states has
7:08 pm
treated putin. i would call it a betrayal of american national interest i mean how long ago was it tom. that obama had found himself in a position to do something he didn't want to do in syria bomb it which would have been catastrophic for everybody but he was in a corner a political corner of his own making and put the rescue that he got assad to agree to destroy his chemical weapons which by most recent reports are nearly destroyed and putin did what other one other thing behind the scenes he could compel her persuaded the new iranian leadership. to open discussions with obama about iran's nuclear weapons program and obama had within his grasp at last because it's been a failed foreign policy presidency for about two achievements that would have been an american national interest. and they have slipped away almost in proportion to
7:09 pm
the degree that obama has pushed putin away pushed putin away so far that now in and over ukraine we could be on the verge of war with russia so without knowing a lot about the internal politics and developments in iraq i do know these things are connected and the russians have always believed that they're connected it's we who don't seem to be able to connect the dots and who enter into whether their ill intentioned or well intentioned policies lead to one disaster after another and alas not just disaster for americans but for the people of the countries where we pursue what are clearly reckless ill advised policies and it's happening again in ukraine i see it always a kind of american twenty first century. foreign policy disaster
7:10 pm
obama didn't begin it but he had a chance to start anew and he has not made things better arguably he's made things worse. previous presidents and previous presidencies there's a long history of having a debate vigorous debate. in front of the president with the president. is it your sense that that's happening in this white house and i don't want to personalize this too much just to obama but if the the you know the picture american foreign policy is an important one but you just brought this up i'm curious your thoughts on this you've been are you going to you introduce each you introduce me as professor emeritus. that's a polite word for being old. today i had lunch i wouldn't mention the names because they'd be known to your viewers and listeners but i had lunch with two men considerably older than me who have served presidents
7:11 pm
. many presidents. and who've known him personally and they were agreed that this president more than any in their lifetime is isolated himself on foreign policy. we went through this struggle in this country over what we then called cold war versus detente in the seventy's in the eighty's i was part of that policy debate the group that was trying to ratchet down the nuclear arms race in the cold . we and there were a lot of us and that included not only professors such as myself but corporate c.e.o.'s it included politicians policy intellectuals they were always people in the white house there were always people in the state department there were always people in congress there were even presidential candidates who she would say to us two or three of you or more come over to my office and tell me what you think we're
7:12 pm
doing wrong and what we ought to do right there is none of that today not in congress but worst of all we know in the past there were always two factions in the white house sometimes they were called the dove as in the hawks or the soft on the hardliners when it came to russia we have no evidence whatsoever that there is such a dialogue going on around obama and i have heard i have heard whether it's true or not i don't know that president obama has declined to meet privately with henry kissinger who sees putin twice a year probably kissinger probably knows putin better than any american. political states were alive today. and who had been consulted by so many presidents and think what we might about kissinger's past but he has already declared his criticism of american policy toward russia that obama would want to spend an hour
7:13 pm
with him asking are we doing soaping role are we misperceive in this situation. to me that's the answer to your question and i think i don't know why it is some of obama's biographers make it is the nature it's astounding well we'll concede as i don't i don't know you know more of so nights conversations of great minds with stephen cohen right after the birth. of a. feeling particularly. feel very hard to deal. with that that would make their lives.
7:14 pm
you. feel. you feel you. feel a particular. i know c.n.n. the m.s.m. b.c. and fox news have taken some not slightly but the fact is i admire their commitment to cover all sides of the story just in case one of them happens to be accurate. that was funny but it's closer to the truth and might think. it's because when full attention and the mainstream media works side by side the joke is actually on you. and our
7:15 pm
teenagers we have a different approach. because the news of the world just is not this funny i'm not laughing dammit i'm not hiding. it if. you guys stick to the jokes i will hand over the stuff that i've got to. go back to conversations with great minds i'm speaking with stephen cohen professor of russian studies and history america said n.y.u. professor of politics americas at princeton university and author of the book soviet fates and lost alternatives from stalin ism to the new cold war. professor cohen let's let's move on to the situation in ukraine the american narrative seems the pop narrative that you get everywhere it seems from the new
7:16 pm
york times to the man on the street is that somehow president putin with regard to the ukraine and crimea is trying to reassemble the soviet empire that he's doing this out of some kind of irrational power impulse tough guy. that. and that and that we've been kind of bystanders for decades and and now maybe we should do something about it because he's acting irrationally first of all would you would you suggest that that encapsulation of the common american narrative is correct or incorrect and if so would you please recalibrate it and secondly what is the actual narrative what's really going on. i wouldn't call it the american narrative and i know you would neither because my experience with people who are interested in this but not.
7:17 pm
absorbed or not studying it every day is they have more questions ordinary americans everyday americans more questions about this what's going on how do we get into this who's really at fault but you're certainly right about the narrative that the mainstream political media establishment has given this and the it may turn into a morality tale that ukraine. wants to join europe for instance moccasin and prosperity and we and the europeans offered them that opportunity but putin thwarted he didn't want ukraine to go to the way it's always been part of russia is fear of influence or russia's empire or russia's history but putin is trying to recreate some empire and he intervene and push came to shove and now we have a civil war in ukraine and into a putin pulls back as the washington post in the new york times put it in their
7:18 pm
regular editorials to putin pulls back. bad things are going to happen that is a false narrative i don't know whether. the administration the obama administration and the editors of the washington post the new york times and the wall street journal and to be honest in s n b c n box and almost everybody else. operate on that narrative i don't know if it's they know the truth and therefore they're not telling the truth or that they're just caught up in the myths that had been attached to russia for twenty years since the end of the soviet union because the short story is that when the soviet union ended in december one thousand nine hundred ninety two years later when the clinton administration came to power it resolved to begin to move our cold war military alliance nato ever closer to post soviet post communist russia the whole story no that's not really the driving
7:19 pm
force behind the whole story for the last twenty years has been the expansion of nato toward russia now it includes not only nato is traditional weaponry but missile defense which is a nato project which is being installed around russia and poland rumania bulgaria and in the black sea because these missile defense systems are now on ships like pac-man if you remember that old game nato has gobbled up all these countries between germany and russia it's now on russia's borders when it came for ukraine in november one thousand thirteen and now at two thousand and thirteen it was packaged as a partnership for democracy and prosperity and maybe that was true but in the package in the documents. were protocols that required ukraine to abide by
7:20 pm
europe's security and military policies decoded nato it was an effort to bring nato in do you are you crying in the nato through the back door putin's reaction to this since he's become really became leader in two thousand and fourteen years ago has been clear we cannot stop you from expanding nato towards we don't like it but we have to red lines and you dare not cross the former soviet republic of georgia and when we crossed that line in two thousand and eight you will recall it was a brief war between georgia our proxy and russia and then we crossed it the other red line which group. stated ukraine. russia will not tolerate the absorbtion of ukraine and or georgia in the nato and nor by any more rational rule or a history of state crime would any leader of
7:21 pm
a great power except that people blame what any russian leader was support in the russian political elite and in russian society could not as russians say lose ukraine now pete the answer to that is people say well every country has a right to join any security organisation it wants. but that's total nonsense. nato is not a sorority or a fraternity or a social club where you pay your dues and you get to be a member it's a strategic organisation involving security it's supposed to promote security and the reality is the expansion of nato has not promoted anybody security and the evidence in the news every day let me say finally here what this ukrainian crisis is it's off the news
7:22 pm
a bit now it got bumped by the malaysian aircraft it got bumped by donald sterling it's being bumped by a rap today the reality is that the ukrainian crisis confrontation between moscow and washington is the worst in decades and if if this is possible but not sure russian borders russian troops crossed from russia into eastern ukraine southeastern and nato which is by the way as we talk mobilizing in eastern europe crosses into western ukraine we will then have and i've said this on your radio broadcast but it needs to be said again we will have something like the cuban missile crisis in one hundred sixty two when america and russia are laden with nuclear weapons. are eyeball to eyeball on a barricade that must be avoided and yet every day we get closer and closer to that possibility so to dismiss it as putin's meddling is complete nonsense this
7:23 pm
is the playing out of an american policy of expanding nato to russia's borders for whatever reason that began with clinton has continued under the second george bush has been pushed by obama and that is a rooster that is now coming home to roost there were a small group of us in this country who in the early nineties warned including the late george kennedy who understood these things warning that this kind of thing was going to happen now it happens and the people responsibility or will not take responsibility for they will not say ok we were wrong we have to rethink policy instead they say to people such as myself who have spoken out you're an apologist for proof your serving the criminal you're not a patriot and the answer to that is no the people who carried out this policy are the anti patriots because you're destroying american national security we are the
7:24 pm
real patriots because it is horribly dangerous to america and we already mention if we lose the kremlin as a partner in iran in syria in afghanistan i mean our supplies and troops have been going into afghanistan. through the russian tranche and how is obama going to get them out of the russians aren't going to help. it is a catastrophe of american foreign policy and the worst part of this is to go back to a point you made before there is apart from on your radio show your television show and a few other alternative media there is absolutely no debate or public opposition in this country about this unlike the situation twenty twenty five years ago when we had real debates and public fights well. and in fact when you and i talked on the radio a few weeks ago i had just come back from germany and i lived in germany i speak german i read german not well but i do and. i think was just build it was in one of
7:25 pm
the big newspapers there was actually a debate almost a front page debate about whether germany should be taking the side of russia or of nato whether you know how big a mistake would it be for germany to participate in the expansion of nato into into ukraine and was it even a mistake for germany to be supportive of the expansion of nato into poland lithuania latvia and estonia and and my understanding is that back when the soviet union came on glued that george herbert walker bush and president gorbachev these two. that they had an agreement that there would be no expansion of nato into lithuania latvia estonia poland or ukraine and that that agreement was broken by the clinton ministration i have that right and you have there were ok and then i had also if i could just drop dump one more thing in here as an american
7:26 pm
who was alive during the cuban missile crisis and i remember it vividly and anybody who hasn't should see the movie that was made about it a couple of years ago we were willing to go to a world wide nuclear war over the soviet union putting missiles ninety miles off our border ukraine is or ukraine excuse me is right on the russian border how can americans not understand how russia would respond to our putting missiles on their border. i mean the analogy often given is that if russia had an international military alliance and canada and or mexico announced they were going to join the have alliance with the american president say well that's freedom of. choice and democracy for you nothing i could do about that president would be impeached if he or she didn't act part of the problem is we have
7:27 pm
an ad age i think maybe it's a native american indian at age that walk of the other guy walk a mile in the other person's shoes or try to see the other person's side of the story or the adage two sides to every story for some reason this didn't begin with obama and they didn't even begin after the soviet union ended some historians think it goes back to one thousand sensory czarist russia americans have always had a hard time. relating to russia. harder for example where we china where we had this long missionary tradition we felt i guess people say that the chinese were our last brothers and we can reclaim but there's never been any sense in america toward russia the other thing is we are a provincial country except for when we go to war we lived our life far from european history germany the country you mention and i think it's the right country
7:28 pm
shared a history with russia twice it was a horrible we're going to have a big get out and we will pick up that a lot of war it. will be back in with more of tonight's conversations the great minds of steven kull right up there with. really what you want your comedy news was a t.v. once a comedy used to be a bare fisted no holds barred fight to the death. because truth vampire biting into the necks of the corporate elite billionaire freaks while they're going. well that's what you get when mind is projected tonight. starforce. looks at the finish line of the marathon.
7:29 pm
hearing live. and. i would rather ask questions to people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question more.
7:30 pm
on marriage and the financial world needs. to cease to comment and not stop the tears only take on the demand for credit you're not going to get any economic benefit in life there are there are bought. and welcome back to conversations of great minds of speaking with the professor stephen cohen professor of russian studies and history emeritus at n.y.u. professor of politics emeritus at princeton university and author of the book soviet fates and lost alternatives from stalin ism to the new cold war he also writes over at the nation for the nation magazine. professor cohen you you mentioned george kennan just before we hit the break and i'd like you to finish your thought but first i wanted to just read you real quickly a quote that that i found actually made one of our people works on our program
7:31 pm
found when we were doing the research for tonight george kennan who was the former ambassador to the soviet union and a u.s. slavia the architect of the truman doctrine in the original containment policy all the way through the kennedy administration beyond that had this to say a nineteen ninety seven op ed he passed when two thousand and five in the new york times he said quote expanding nato would be the most fateful error of american policy in the entire post cold war era such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic anti western and militaristic tendencies in russian opinion to have an adverse effect on the development of russian democracy to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to east west relations and to impel russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking so my question is how can someone like canon have seen this and yourself and others and not people like president clinton president bush president
7:32 pm
obama and their advisors how how did we how did we screw this up. or was it was it not just. to what extent is the does russia play. roland score in this thing. let's go to george tenet. the younger people watching your show might not remember who he was but he was considered to be the wisest statesman we had about russia he was also a historian and that's the key i taught at princeton for thirty years and during those thirty years george kennan lived in princeton he was at the institute for advanced study and about once a month george and i and is a man older than myself who had served which orange my own mentor robert c. tucker would serve with george in moscow we would have lunch. george had was
7:33 pm
a deeply conservative man he had social views that can only be described as cringe worthy but about russia and about the limits of american power and how to use that power he was so was what you just read about what would happen if we expanded nato was pure prophecy if we did a book of the great statements of prophecy in modern history it would be there but it was a divine prophecy prophecy it was the prophecy of a man who had studied russian history for thirty or forty years and i think this begins to answer your question of why and i will not put myself forward as a leader of this group but i have been among them why a small group of people and this would include by the way another very conservative man jack matlock who was ronald reagan's ambassador to the soviet union during the gorbachev. and bat former ambassador matlock feels similarly to the way i do
7:34 pm
but this expansion of nato policy for twenty years has been catastrophic the jack was an academic also a study a student of the story if you study russia with an open mind. as much as you might hate the ideology of the kremlin under a given regime or however much you may dislike the leadership of russia is long as you approach russian history its traumas its triumphs its diversity its vastness its complexity you will understand that it will see no matter who the leadership of russia might be composed or headed by that the kremlin would see this slow advance of nato as a dangerous threat and a provocation and would react exactly. as george kennan said it would twenty
7:35 pm
years ago. it's not just russia though because it then goes into a catastrophe for american foreign policy and for the countries in between so i guess the answer is that presidents are not expected to be a story and i don't ask for that i ask for a president to be a person who solicits the best and most diverse learned views involving an impending or existing crisis that's all i have i didn't i didn't vote for either president bush but the first president bush reached out to talk to me in one nine hundred eighty nine when the bush administration couldn't make up its mind whether or not robert shaw it was in the process of trying to reform the soviet system represented an end up in an opportunity in the cold war or not one wing of the bush administration said no there's
7:36 pm
a trick he's trying to lawless and a weakness don't make any concessions don't make any deals and the other side said president bush would arm up the first president bush this is your chance to enter history. gorbachev for as reagan you could in the cold war bush didn't know what to do or maybe he knew what to do but he wanted to bring in people who would tell him what he wanted to do he staged a debate at camp david this was as i recall october november one thousand eight hundred nine was going to be gorbachev and all the berlin wall was coming down everything was breaking loose what to do he staged a debate in front of his entire team i mean the head of the cia the head of defense and he invited two people to act against me. then a princeton known as the princeton school and richard pipes at harvard known as the
7:37 pm
harvard school because we represented the so-called soft in hard detente cold war games and he said professors each of you has fifteen minutes to state your case we will in query and we spent about two and a half three hours at camp david then given lunch that's the kind of president would want not to invite me but the president has to bring in people with conflicting views whose legitimacy is based on their knowledge and their learning a president who doesn't do that is going to get us into the crisis that obama and clinton got us into. so where do we go from here. where do we go from here. it's this this seems like a very bleak. valuation i suppose the. you know one one hopes that the administration is is watching the program or something
7:38 pm
let me actually let me ask a different question and i'm curious your thoughts on the i mean you can come back to that if you are but what are your thoughts on the in the movement that toppled victory. where their lives are legitimate grievances against the ukrainian government. well i mean that's the turning point you're asking the right question if you're going to analyze a crisis you have to ask when and how it began forget it the beginning of nato expansion twenty years ago let's go to the overthrow of victory on a coach who was the elected president of ukraine and europe said it was the freest and fairest election in any post soviet country of that territory he was a rotter he was a lousy president he was a corrupt man and in the end he turned out to be a coward but he was the elected constitutional president the country. what happened briefly when the remember one thousand nine hundred two thousand and thirteen he refused to sign the european offer for peace and prosperity for reasons that i just
7:39 pm
mentioned plus putin gave him more cash up for a peaceful protest form in kiev and i don and the people peaceful protests turned violent street violence molotov cocktail attacks on the police in february the violence was led by neo fascists groups most of the protestors were democratic peaceful people but the violence caused on a covert to flee for his life. the parliament minus the parties that represented the east formed a new government it was illegal and unconstitutional and it's been the government we have embraced ever since about this i have one thing to say it is anti democracy new presidential elections were due in the following year in february moreover europe foreign minister had brokered a deal between the so-called moderate parliamentary parties and president on
7:40 pm
a coach that he would move elections up to december from february of this year to december and that he would form an interim coalition government in between that deal was torn up in the streets and burned in twenty four hours. the west capitulated to the street riots you know on a covert felt so good when putin says. and not everything he says is true but not everything he says it was that the kiev government is an illegitimate government if we measure legitimacy in terms of constitutional law. putin is correct and has no legitimate moral frager the example which sets for other new demand would be democracies i mean if the tea party surrounds the white house tomorrow and imagine obama go immediately now he flees and they put ted cruz in the white house as
7:41 pm
president would we say well that's democracy at work it would never happen because that is not the culture of the practice of democracy that we chose to embrace and endorse it and president obama would later call it a constitutional process when they have thrown the prior constitution out that's not what we want to america to represent and it led to it led to because the south and the east who were no longer represented electorally in kiev that led to what we are now witnessing in ukraine a civil war which is claimed over maybe two or three hundred deaths caused that you've got tens of thousands of people now fleeing across the border into russia because a humanitarian crisis and it is provocative to the degree that it could lead to an american russian war so that moment you mention rightly taught how that government came to power that was the tipping point that was the dynamic that led to all that
7:42 pm
followed putin had nothing to do with that he played no role accept to protest what was happening he played no role in that was europe and washington and you know we had washington's representative victoria nuland of the state department caught on tape plotting with the american ambassador in kiev in ukraine to overthrow the on a covert government to our fingerprints even if we didn't directly engineer that coup it wasn't our fingerprints. that that that that that change of got some something that is was was mentioned in the in the would be article i was reading in the german newspapers a few years a few weeks ago something that's well known all across russia and something that is virtually absent from american news and american coverage of this which i find just fasting. and want to continue this conversation with you right after that we have
7:43 pm
to take a very quick break sir we'll be right back more of tonight's conversations with great minds to call for. dramas the truth be ignored. stories others refuse to notice. faces changing the world. so picture of today's you know. from a rose to glow.
7:44 pm
i marinate joining me. for it seems that impartial and financial reporting commentary contribute. only on bus and on.
7:45 pm
welcome back to conversations of great things i'm speaking with stephen cohen as are russian studies and history of merit us at n.y.u. professor of politics and murders of princeton university author of the book soviet fates and lost alternatives of stalin of the new cold war and writer for contributing editor to the nation magazine professor you were about to make a point just as we hit that were you. know actually you made the point to end it's an important point when you referred to you having been not long ago in germany and you were reading the german crowds and you were struck by the debate that's going on in germany and someone told me that today that in germany the television talk
7:46 pm
shows and newspapers are full of opposing conflicting views about what's going on in russia and ukraine and american policy and what germany should do that's the way a democracy is supposed to function one person said to me steve what's being printed and we're talking not about the french press in germany but the main stream newspapers and magazines and on television that that would be regarded as heresy in the united states it will never appear on the op ed pages of the new york times or the washington post or the wall street journal or on the cable news talk shows it would be regarded as heresy elect tells us two sons. an orthodoxy about russia has formed in this country over twenty years and it's not only wrong it's reckless and it's led it's to this crisis in ukraine which is every bit as bad as i've described
7:47 pm
the second thing it means that each time for people in this country and i appeal to the include your show those we're listening no matter what the position is in universities and governments and think tanks in the media who worry about this to break the silence and speak out and i would go one step forward the only way you can break orthodoxy is with heresy some of the things that i say to you tonight are regarded as a radical treasonous unpatriotic but a heresy is a good thing when it's needed there's no virtue in moderation itself if the issue is dire and desperate so if in germany a new relatively new democracy with a past every bit as bad as russians can develop a democracy where people speak openly and freely without fear of failing to get a promotion or getting on
7:48 pm
a op ed page and can speak freely and passionately i mean two or three former german chancellor have blamed europe for the crisis in ukraine not russia they haven't blamed russia they blame europe where our former presidents are we know why president clinton will speak out because he began that policy but where is president carter does he have a thought where are the former secretaries of state who pursued other policy why the silence. is it is simply become we've developed i fear a political culture. within the establishment that is conformist. even though the penalty of dissent in our country is cheap unlike in many other countries why is it that only a handful of people with any name at all have spoken out on mainstream television for example back in february and march and then got kicked off that have never been
7:49 pm
by what kind of democratic discourse is this i applaud you for promoting this debate i mean i'm here alone but i've told you both sides of the story and viewers and listeners can decide for themselves so germany is instructive to me and there's one other point about that i think i'm not sure i don't have intelligence information or inside sources but it's been chancellor merkel of germany who in the last couple months has kept our president obama from acting even more unwisely today and it may be that at the moment since there is no one we can turn to in washington merkel's our best hope i'm not sure about this but i think this is possible. there are this this year nine hundred twenty fourteen is the one hundred anniversary of the beginning of world war one where. it over the assassination of archduke ferdinand tripped off
7:50 pm
a series of mutual defense agreements that forced countries to leap into wars that it literally to this day i've not found any good and we've had a couple of world war one scholars on the program because i find the topic fascinating who can explain why world war one happened or why we know why all that carnage and bloodshed what justified that and. the financial times in the last. it's been a it's been a month or so since they brought it up but in the last six months i've probably had about four it's particularly back during the time of when the ukraine crisis was at a at its hottest in the western press in the american and british press. talking about. the possibility that we're looking at a world war one moment again. that's really serious talk i'm curious your quotes of what or why i don't know the that history will end up the
7:51 pm
what did the a story ins of world war one stay to you when you had them all and were they worried that we're in a repetition of history at the moment i've. had people suggest that we are and i've had people suggest that there are a lot of differences but the the these op eds in the art in the in the financial times it's people can probably more easily find them conversations i've had on the radio with people. who have you know come basically come right out and said could you crane be you know could there could there be an event that happens in ukraine that is the equivalent of the assassination of archduke ferdinand. well i think i don't know about the analogy i'm wary of historical analogies but i think there is an of it that's happening as we talk that could precipitate. american russian war for the last since mid april but particularly since the third
7:52 pm
week of may to be exact the kiev government and that is our government we kept it in power we financed it biden's been there twice the head of the cia is has been there we've got all sorts of military advisors there that the government has been waging what it calls an anti terrorist operation against major cities in southeast ukraine which are mainly pro russian. and here's a piece of news that is not reported in america putin is under tremendous pressure in russia to do something about that as those cities are being reduced to rubble as women and children are dying or being caused to flee for their lives are across the border into russia now it's true that russian television shows this boat each of these cities and it nonstop but pictures don't lie they can't be edited to tell a lie you can see the rubble you can see the pockmarked buildings you can see the dead bodies you can see the fear and panic and good news being told in the russian
7:53 pm
press that he's got to do something. and that something means what does it mean well the proposal being offered in russia is that putin should establish a no fly zone over south eastern ukraine the way we did in libya and that putin should use his air force to shoot down craney an aircraft and bomb ukrainian tanks that are entering the cities destroying the heavy artillery keys under pressure i don't think he would do it but he appears from war continues he might and if he does that my natal winner of that war and we will then be at your cuban missile crisis so if you're looking for a precipitating event it is ongoing it's not a similar sasa nation it's this unwise reckless murderous inhuman campaign that kiev is conducting against what are admittedly rebel provinces but
7:54 pm
rincon never called the confederacy care s. . he always said no matter how bad the civil war was there are fellow citizens we want to come back to the union why is kiev calling its own citizens terrorists their rebels their protesters. they have a political agenda why isn't kiev sending a delegation there to negotiate with them their demands are not unreasonable they want to elect their own governors we elect our own governors they want to have a say in where their taxes go they know no taxation without representation we know what it is there are extremists among them but there are also people who simply want to live in ukraine that's for everybody and instead the ukrainian army the kiev army with the full support of the united states is supporting this assault and by the way when the state department is asked about it they send out a woman named jim acosta scour the scotty p s a k. who always says we have
7:55 pm
absolutely no concerns about this that the ukrainian government has the right to restore law and order in this country and the russians are responsible for all these activities you know what happens the russians show this woman smirking and condescending on television every night she's the greatest propaganda tool the kremlin has putin has influence in southeastern ukraine but he doesn't control these people these people live there it's their land they have their own families and demands and political desires you sit down and you negotiate. it's we have we have just two minutes left. president pro shank oh poroshenko is said to be talking to mr putin trying to work out something on the other hand i read in the new york times just in an hour and a half ago that there was there were reports that tanks were coming from russia into ukraine then there was
7:56 pm
a counter report that said but those tanks are the ones that the russian army no longer uses and that something's going on here but it's not necessarily an invasion any thoughts on that any knowledge about the i have two thoughts first of all punishing the new ukrainian president would be an opportunity to open negotiations the problem is he's back to this so-called and he chose military campaign against the southeast secondly it's not clear is any power at all and key here of because the parliament the depos of the previous president reverted to an old constitution that gives parliament not the president essential power secondly russia has admitted that it is open to humanitarian corridor between ukraine the south east and russia so that people who are fleeing the country can flee safely and so russia can send essential medications fresh water other supplies to the beleaguered cities
7:57 pm
if those tanks were there those russian tanks and they appear to be old russian tanks that the separatists or the rebels got themselves from the u.k. or ukrainian base but if those three tanks three tanks are not an invasion three tanks are opened up a corridor to move supplies through so that could have been part of this project i think it's the news is so misrepresented the new york times or the washington post and the administration are publicizing lose it's coming out of here which is a war government with its misinformation. from dr stephen king. professor steven cohen thank you so much for dropping by tonight it's always an honor and fascinating to talk with thank you so much make you talk. to see this and other conversations of great minds go to our website had conversations with great minds dot com. and that's the way it is tonight friday june thirteenth two thousand and fourteen and don't forget democracy begins with you get out there get active take
7:58 pm
your. one of the wonderful strong arming allies the immunology face i think you know both . a pleasure to have you with us here on t.v. today i'm role research and. i'm good at this site but i'm big corporation trying to.
7:59 pm
do and the bank it's all been all about money and i was fast like that for a politician right a lot and. somebody up. there just to let pratt is it a guy. that. the to. the boob tube her it were purple her it would go to sleep it would.
8:00 pm
hurt. her the bit. i realized something recently you know the difference between evil people and good people villain is people are just people crazy pants dennis miller and saturday night live dennis miller the difference is that evil people have plans they always have a plan good people don't have plans or missions or agendas we just stumble through life think it will all treat each other right if given the chance even people have dry raise boards and power point presentations and i pad app to keep track of just how evil is coming along and whether it needs an evil course correction because this quarter's evil is three percent lower than last quarter's evil good people don't have plants good people have don't know it's in saddam it's just don't know. all right he was.

27 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on