tv Charlie Rose PBS July 3, 2009 10:00am-11:00am EDT
>>ose: welcome to the broadcast. tonit a look at president obama through the eyes o richard wolffe who covered him during the campaign and has writn a new book called "renegade" >> everyone says he's very cool under fir and does ry any oweotion at all? well, i saw h when he was grum and frustrated. and he cou get annoyed withe, with questions. he wantsi think, to be pushedut doesn't always enjoit i thoughtmy job was to pro and analyze. >> rose: we continueith guillermo del toro, has cowritn hisfirst book about vampis called "th stream >> monsters are incredibly beautiful,fragile creatures beuse they need imagination to be sustned it. what horrifys me is ality. the banalit of this existenc we're starting to live which ilike a tabloid
>>ose: richard wolffe is here, he covered the 200 pridential race while he was a correspondent for "newsweek" mazine. he tells t story of back obama's rise and campaigin his new book "renegade: t makingf a president" >> i'm pleased to have richard wolffe on this broadcast, wcome. thank you, charlie. >> an -- come back. >> thankou. >> nice to s you." renegade "happento be the present's name give ben thsecret service. >> yes, and they say tre is no corelation aall between character d the code ne about i kind of ink there is. >> rose: cheney was angler, s it. >> aler. >> rose: andush was? >> i think at one point he was tumble weed. but the intereing thing here f me was a srting int for theonversation. it is not a perfect characterizati, it's a code name, after all but for a guy who break the rules, who dsn't wait his turn buts also a very discipned, sometimes even hesitant and doubtful rule-breer, that was the construct for me. >> rose: 21 monthshow many interviews? >> i countedat more tha a
dozen. ofn, you know, we had the formal sitown interviews wi the voice recorders an the handlers. but some of the besttuff was the sort of rolling conversation we ha the encounter in the hot lobb or after a me of sketball, you know, along the way. >> rose: youlayed with him. >> several times. don't be surprised because i'm small and om england but hey --. >> rose:here are some very good sma baskeall players. >> i'm not sure'm one of th. >> rose: the also this, thou. the he suggested the idea. >> he did. >> rose: to you. >> he did. and i told him it was a stup idea. >> re: did you really? >> i really did. you know --. >> rose: -- had wrien a great chronicle the 1960 campai, kennedy. >>e did. and that'shat he had in mind. i said to him i thought -- i loved the ddy white oks to but i thoughtthe genre was kind of exhausted. people just ren't publishing or reing that kind of thing any more. they like the partisan stuff about why republicans are evil andemocrats are stupid. >> rose: and also newspapers,
teddy white did th over a period otime which noby else did it. today everybody is doi that. right. >>ose: the nature of the coverage. >> right. and that was my concern as well. anhe looked very crest llen. i'm sure he recovered finement but went back a considered and thought well, maybe we can revive this. and reient it. so teddy white was an inspiration b not an aspition. i mean there were elements of it that i thought were still fresh, especially the start, opening, on election day, thedea thatthe last 24, 36 hours are something ry special. but lot of the sff in between that feltew, i think 1960, the statistical stuff, just doesn't hold up toda >> rose: talking with strategists and l that. >> yeah. >> re: so what was the nature of the relationship? obviously 's reporterandidate. >> yesit is. >> re: but was it more. did you ever have conflict, did you have -- >> oh,es, absolutely. that's one of the funn things aboutatching him now. everyone says he's very cool undefire and does he have
any owe moti at all? well, i saw him when he was grumpy and frustrated. and he could get annoyed with m with questions. he wants, i thi, to be pushed but doesn't always enjoit and i thought my b was to probe and analyze. look this is my third esidential campaign and i thought for anyf us who covered the 2000 campaign whe there seem to be no real substance and head a very charismac, charming dant, i thoughwe all had an obligation to ph these people. did they know someing more than the talking points? could they adapover the course o 21 months a long time? could they apt to real life, current affairs? especially in foreign policy which is one of my first loves. so i was pushing him on. and i think he sponded to that. in fact, i think that may have been wh we connected rses he liked the challee of having to -- >> ihink de. >> rose: of hang to define himself. i think e process of the stories, who is up, who
down, the poll numrs, were actuallyeasy for him. he thought that was tang --. >> rose: tactical analysis >> yeah, i was trial. >> rose: here's what is interesting to me. of his own self awareness, and how he deribed himself which part of that didn't ring true foyou? where is he trng to promote an ige which may not be at the hrt ofho hes? >> this's a great question. i rember one conversation we had early in the primary phaswhere he told meyou know, i coulwalk ay from l of this. and i jt said what do you mean, u could walk away fromll of this. and said you know, i could go back d you kw, be with my famy. i said what,each law and just hang out with your ki. >> he said yeah, yeah, i could do that. i'm not sure she could, meaning hillary clton. and i just said don't believe it i jus don't lieve it. >> rose: i don't either. >> so his selimage was at it was fine. >> rose: h self-image was that he dn't need it. >> hdidn't need it.
whh is a presidential construct. e people want me to d this. but he said nowhey have noyed me. now really want to win. d there this conflict her betweea guy who is incredibly competitive, really, he has to win. he's driven to win. but is comfortable enoug th himself or at least he thinks he that he doesn needo strife. there's an effort of being ertless. >> rose: that's wellaid. >> a sto in the book wre he has to -- he h to mem orize th big speech in iowa, the jj dinner spee which the launch pad f many candidates. he has to mem ore it, as you can ll from the use of the teleprompteroday,he don't really mem orize anytng. and he doesn't tell his stf anything. theyon't know if he is prepping. he goeback to his hel room every night, turns on thev really lo, the stf thinks this is kind of range and he reheaes on his reading outloud. >> mem orizing it, commting it to memeechlt so when they g through the first runthrough, althe
aides are nervou has g ithas he done any work on it, they don't know. heces it. that is the so of study, the effort hind the performance. >> rose: when read that i sa this is a defining example of wt he a here -- appears to me to be like >> rate. >> rose:omeone who is ambitioncious, ambitiois a good thing. meone who set a goal, a good thi. he went chicago to bece a commity organizer because heanted to fd a routeto puic office, i believ >> aouple of things. i think he -- first of all, heant wanted to d some roots to his le because h had this rootlessxistence and his family was incredibly dysfunctional. not just a absent fher but an absent moer too. so chigo was a place could find some roots . and he found among them jeremiah wright. community organizing was a way to connect with the dreamse had, literally the dreams to beart of the civil rights movement. ich he was obvusly too young for. he cam too late f that. and so and the third piece of itas discipline.
i repeatedly put inhe book about malcolm x being a model for him. malcolm x wasn't a counity organizer but onehing he loved abo malcolm x as a reader and, i believe, as a writer washat he called e repeated acts of self-creation of malcolm x and this idea that he is a self-made man, that could will himself int being by this disciplined approacho organizing himself, organing the commuty. i thk was key. he is his project. i mean, y know, some of his critics say it is nars sis particular. but he is a self-made rson and by any objecve analysis, having the childhood he had, he rlly ought to be a mess. there shoulnot be any trace of disciple, that comes from him and it's a constant efft, i believe. >> rose: looking athe jeremiah wright thing, what was intriing to me too, at the inght you had, that he visited jeremiah wrig beforee went to me his speech at the natial press club. >> uh-huh. >> rose: no one knew abt that.
>> nody knew. it was a lot of secrecy. >> rose: d anyone ask the questionf the caidate dung that time, have you seen jeremiah wright? >> yes. in fact, i thi i did. rose: and the answer was? >> he dodged it. >> rose: how did he dodge it in front ofou? >> we haven't connected at this point or -- >> rose: so e followup is have youtried. >> next question. >> rose: oh, really. so yououldn't ask a followup and flowup to th. but had all this acces >> oh, yeah, no, i -- tha was something that t secret meeting s something i discoverelater. this w incredibly sensite at the time. theyeally thought that jeremiah writ could bring down the entire campgn, e two-year efrt could be brought down not so much by the first round of it, but by the comeback tour. they sawtheir numbers collapsing. so everything about it was radioactive. >> rose: here's what else interests me about the jemiah wright. and know this because of yo book. the idea that he hadn early pmonition a that
there may be somerouble th the sermons with jeremiah wright so h orred the staff to go over em. >> and thenever did --. >> ros unfortunately it never happened. th suggestion he knewthe inflammatory nature of the speech and, in fact, heard them. and therefore any other -- >> yeah, well his frien suspected there was something in there. and clearly thiis a speaker what, jeremiah wright, who was seeking it to provoke and one his friends explained, you know, if reverend writ could be outrageous and make e world seem orageous, then maybe your problems ren't so great. it was a way o putting the wod back into focus. but they knew that there re danger points in there. and actually thinkhe dirty secret of it was that he wasn't inchurch very often. anthis was kind of embarrassi. >> rose: so wh he may have ordered this up. >> it was emrrassing. >> rose: he didn't want ople to know he didn't go to church. >> hhad brian a article about how political office
holders should pay aention toommunities of faith. there is ahole chapter on fah. >> rose: whadoes that suggt to you, richard? >>hat there is, along with this sen of authentity, a degreeof showmansh and evrticifice yes, a theatral performance that thisresident and then candate knew that he could peorm. for a start, think he's actually a loner. i actual think for alof his comfortn stage, he most cfortable on his own. soe knows he's performing. and he's goodith it. but don't meano say the public persona is the real thing. >> rose: a how iisn't the public psona the real thing? >> because he lis to be on his own. because i don't tnk actually --. >> rose: when he walksut to make a speech it's almost like he above the seen. he's looking of the moment and above the moment. >> but the clevething is as a community organiz, he
undetood the power of saying, of brking down the barrier. my sry is like yr story. and your story is like the person standing next tyou or person down the street. and weaving together people'sstories is a techniquthat nobody could see, but it had a political impact. not st a narrative. he ds it in his books. he calls them secretary d stories. he goes ound chicago collecng these stories about the communy. that ihow you build the community, howou build the organizati. but it is a technique. rose: bill clinton sat at this table once wn i asked him about his intelligence. said i have a certain intellence that worked and serv me well inolitics. know how to connect the dots. >> uh-huh. >> re: it seems to me what he d was he madeis narrative america narrative. and america's narrative,is narrative. >>hat's right. >> rose: and all of a dden you haa storyor america. >> with him as the story teller, the wer of being the narrator of the story is very impornt. nojust telling his sto but teing america's stor you know, a a community organir you have toot just collect the stories but create a narrative.
the, that perd he s writing journalshich became dreamsrom my father. and this takes me back to maolm x, by the way. because maolm x' classic book, the autobiography, quote, unquote, was as told to alex hailey. al hailey developed this. is st of semi fictionazed weaving together of truth and idealism, les put it as. and i think he did at very powerful, politically and by the way in terms of book writg. >> rose:hurchillaid -- >> yes, and churchill ce out etty well froming it fromhe history he wrote. >> rose: youuild o dreams of my father in terms ohow th whole -- howe defined it. >>ight. >> rose: a you believe wh is at the essence of that. >> dreams from m father is a bit of a distorted view. because as someo who wa't there and in many ways the journeyf discovery is really wh that book isbout. and the journey involved -- look, his mother wanted him
to see himself as a citen of the world. in fact, i quote him saying at his mother thought at times she w quote, unquote not whi. so he, his discovery of himself is really him lling the story of t journey. and it the process of piecing these ings together that really makes him who he is. that'snot always satisfying because in the end, he doesn't connecwith his father. he doesn really connect with his mother either it but he had that oice. heas a middl class kid, t a working class kid. like mielle oma's family, one bedroom bungalown the south side of chicag that's where her mothewas living until she mov into the white house. so really an extraordinary joney but he had the opportunity to be, as put it, a tizen of the wld and shed his back on it he had the oppounity to not really brooted in religio his mother wasn't. she ha this vy sort of
frankly hippie view of spiritual commonality. she was an anthrologist. now he can be an anthropologist. he can step oside his own society, h own culre, even outside his own -- his owworld, bu he wanted to find his roo. and he foun them both as a community organizebut also in his marriage to michelle ama. >> rose: he und that experience o-- >> he wand a famy wre the ther was homevery night for dinner. a nuclear family in a big amican city, an african-americ identity. hechose that. >> rose: he said earlyn from your book, that he after e campaign t before the electn he had begun to focuson hillary clinton as his seetary of state. >>eah. >> rose: becse she had rtain qualities. >> uh-huh. >> rose: discipline, inteelect, toughne. >> that's right. >> rose: sgesting those arthe qualities he admires. >> absolutely. d this is at a time when the unds are still so raw.
i mean his frien, his aides, and en he really feelasonatebout the kinds of exchges they had. the blows sh landed on him, it was vy, very pnful. you don'tave too back that far to se what they were saying aboueach other. rose: what was it that they said th made him fee woded? >> that he wasn' ready to commander in chief. that he was just like jesse jackson after he won in south carolina. south carona was a big deal for them. the constant sort of --. >> rose: winng or clinton's reaction. >> the belittling, yea the belittling ohim. the idea that he was a roie. that he was nve and inexperienced and not up to it. not worthy of the contest. i thk that was intensely annoying a more insulting. >> re: what is it that he believes? what is s ideology? is itonly practicity?
>> well, i think he hassle vatedragmatic potics to a different level. and i you -- if youisten tohe 2004 convention speech, his breakthugh moment, thiss a slippery political character inhe sense that if you are going to unit redmerica and blue america you ara comprosed candidate. the line ofhat compromis is not easy to predict. and was difficult for his campaigno understand where the line was. he likes to think ofimself as an innative policy inker. but the idea tt so lon after e heat of the cold war and the battles, the ideaological battl of the reagan era, the idea that you are going toave a cln ideaological description this guy is i think actuly kind of naive. >> rose: but you think it's being shaped now by th decisions he'll have t make, will have to come hard ainst, what does he believe in. >> yeah. >> rose: andhether he is
mang decisions. >> well, he wantto be the reagan of the left. he wants to a ansform difficult fire to shift the balae of amecan debateo the left. there is no question about it. >> rose: how do u know th? >> becausef the wayhe taed about reagan. becausof the way he exessed it to me. >> rose: how did he lk about rean? >> he fought reagan while opposed just aboutvery one of his policie as a comnity organizer he was dealing sort of at the roughened on the streets, escially the economic policies. he admir his ility to be a great president, the moment of the ti, the coming together of the te and the man and th lasting impact he had i shifting the date to one side. now he considered from a completely difrent angle, course. s insncts on when he talks about health care, we're inhe middle of a health care debate. he said quite openly if you couldo it all over again if you can could srt from scratch, we nt a single payor stem. w that bout as close to a definitn of
progressive or libal as u could get. t being pragmatic, h says we're nogoing to dohat. so he's intensely pragmatic about it. now look at how closely he dends the publioption. that's going to be a defining ment for him ether it ends up as a full-blown sysm. >> re: because is the one item thathe right is jumping on. >>annot stand, canno stand. >> rose: and will use that to try to define him as a president. >> yeah. rose: uh-huh t that is o we told you he was. >> but he has a social projecin mind. he wants to taken this and leave that as his legacy, i ha no doubt about that. >> rose: s that in different words. that he wants to say -- he wants to start, to ansform difficult, change the enre framework of health ce delivery inhis cotry. but beyond tt, toreshape the playing field so that competition ves differeny because of governmentction, that government in conservative terms the solution and not e problem here. that it caneliver health care better, with low
adminirative costs. th's distinctly liberal view of whatovernment can do and how it shoul affec every rt osociety. the pvate sector, delivery of hlth care, i means that's an ambitious leral project. >> rose: there a two eventshat are interesting to m in this as wl. onis the defeain the race for congress. >> uh-huh. >> rose: what did at do to hi >> well, he -- apart from hang losing he is still searing for him. he getsery defensive about it. he sayoh, i didn't do so badly. only lost by 19 points. well, no he did really badly. >> re: 19 points. >> he says oh, i just -- i didn't polbefore i made m decisi. that was my mistake. well, it was bit more than that. this is a sort of unchecked self-confidenc and normally his discipline is very good at checng that kochiness, frkly, that cane there. now you need toe confident a leader, you do, otherwise yo wouldn't run
for prident, you wouldn't try an lead the free world. but thought that he saw weakness in bby rush in chicago, where there was none. uerestimated the power of ethnicpolitics, one of s mentors told me thank goodness hwas bad at ethnic politics because if he had beenood at it he wouldn't be running fo president and obvisly now beene president. but there was an idea that personal charm, timesere rit for him to just go do this. so when he came ba to his friends afrwards after really getti beaten very badly ansaid he was ing to r for senate, they all laughed at him d intact tom daschle, obviously, you know, leading figure in the mocratic party when he w him, he thought, younow, i can see a talent but losina race for the half is not thbest platform for running for nate. that was 2004 andhe ended upbviously being one of the w bright spotsor democrats in 2004. >> rose: tt is the second point. in 2004 he goto deliver theonvention peach athe democratic nional convention. that ignited a national -- >> i did.
>>ose: attention for him. >> it did. >> rose: how did that happen and how much of it was his understandg that if i can get thishot with my rhetorical skill it will put me into another zone? >> well, a stateenator from illinois doesn't get to really he the plaorm. this is a combition of events. someone who has a unifying, positiveessage, which is very important for at nvention, that kerry and bob shru wanted at at time david axelr's conntions with all of these people, his political visor, his con signicantly airy, just having the accs, and him as the mostdviceable symbol o diversity. i don' think there was any question the divsity helped him. >> rose: so o made the decision? >> well, bob keryjohn kerry and bob shrum >>ose: he and kerry said ye >> they e campaigned together. kerry had been impressed at
some education event, i thinit was, in chicago. so therwas sething the. but it -- thi isn't -- i don't ink he sang that much o the event that he thought oh he's the keynote eaker. >> rose: wt don't you foe about him that he want to know >> there's qte a lot. i ink he is a hidden character. i think it is intentionally hidden. right now, i think the key queson is how the presidency changes someonemt because it does changeou. i mean i saw it i interviewed hiin the oval office and the -- the impatience, the moodiness came a little quicker. there s a presidential speed to the impatice. i think it's tough, difficult to -- diffilt to change yourself into something different but maybe some of the characteristicare reinforc inse t white house because people are there to reinforcwhat you want, to predict what you want. so --. >> rose: not only that, u look at the wod differently cause you see theroblems th you have
to make har decisions. you can't just talk about them, you have too them. >> and we're sing that a whole range of national security thing guaanamo. th rhetoric comes a lot easier. actually findst, i think, relatively simple to jettison some of his promises because - becse of thatpragmatism. >> rose: and bause he can. >> because he n. anbecause he's competitive. he wants to win. >> rose: f the country, for himlf, f everybody. >> all of the above. >> rose: i dn't mention this, there are lots of other thin that have gotten aention. one is tt after the congressional -- failed congressional ce there was some tension in the marriage anthey overcame that >> that's ue. >> rose: and some other things. renega, the making of a president by richa wolffe based on exclusive intervie with barack obama. thank you. >> thank you, charlie. pleasure. >> ros back in a moment, stay with us.
>> rose: guillmo del toro is he, his films combi science fiction, fantasynd horror. over the yrs his wo has a trakted a deted cult following. phe for his rich agination and passion for detail. in 2006 h earned widespread praise for" pan's labyrin ". the film s an ternational success and won three acamy awards. here is a ok atsomef his wor. (speaking spanis you and i,
>> world, he i come. >> rose: d toro has cowrittehis firstovel, it is lled the strn, it about one of his favorite topics, sram peie. i'm pleased to he him back at this tle. welcome. >> thank you, it's gre to be here. >> rose: iatched you watch this. >> yeah. >> rose: little compositwe put together, montage and you're like a kid. >> it like an album. >> rose:ike a family album. >> iis, because you know, creating monsters, i think, m fertile, only with monsters. love -- i love, i'm the richard at borrow of
monsters. i love starting them, creating them, knowing how ey work. >> rose: what about vampires what is it aut vampires. >> when i was a very young kid i was already a checker books by age fouor five i started collting little paperbacks. and onof them at around age7 i came upon a book thats with a treatise abt vampire fact. in other words, itollected europeanore about sram pirism. little detai like polish vampire acally doesn't have fangs, he h a sting their comeout of t tongue. or the ft that you can -- a vampire alwayseturns to the family first and sram pirizing t family before it goes t into the wod. and those thingsouan see in cron us or blade. and i stard keepi -- i have the di ease, my diarys with my dwings. and i started accumulating mpire lower. some it made it to kna, me to blade but a lot of it didn' find a wayo find its way to movies.
d one od day, i had the ideaor,he strain. >> rose: so at did you do? >> well, i started by thinking well w what wld happen wit a pandemi, a pandic that actuallynded up being an iasion a vampir virus. an alien entity. the idea to rmulate the vampirism is actually like a thinking cancer, a cancer that delopsan alternate system of organs. takes over a human by and functions, kicks andour engine changes you belong ta life mentality. you become essentially a drone, an insect and all these ings started to get together. and ithought what would happen to the cdc on that pandemic. ho would burecracy deal with that. and howould --. >> rose: you meathe center ofisease kl contl. >> yes, because theyould be dealing with it and litt by lite, unfortunately, the world caught with usut in all those year it was sll a fantasy. rose: this had something to do, sething,as a kid.
you had this huge scary drea. >> yes. i have lucid dreang whi meant you we up in theed th you are actually sleeping in. and you think are you in the room. and that it's re. and you see things, you know, i usedo see monsters as a kid. >> re: did that make its wainto the strain. >> y. actually there is on chapter that i wrote. it was originally a little story i wrote at age 14. and it's a chapter of a kid sitting by a window sill lookinout into the street. and it's completely autobiographal. i mean i nev saw a vampire but it's sitting at my grandmother's secondloor window lookingt the street at night. and waitg to see somebody walk byt 2:00, 3:00 a.m., d thinking what if that person tur and lks at me. >> ros yeah. >> i mean,nd that horror, that's in ther and many otherhings that are autiographical are in there.
>> rose: so what is side of your head? >> a lotfonsters. lot of --hedea that monsters are incredly beautil, fragile creares because th need imaginatn to be sustained. what horrifys me is reality. the banality of this existee where startin to live which is like a tloid extence, or reality-show existence, you know. i like monsts because they are absolutely representatis of something. >> rose: when you lo at monsters in contrast that withcience fiction. >>es. >> rose: what's re mpelling to you? i'm to the a hardware guy. i really like monsters. i am biological, perverse, you know, anatomically perverse guy. and i'm intoquishy things. the fanty that appeals to or the science science fiction that appeals to me has a humanistic strike, or andea, a philosophical strike like plip dick, sturgeon. i'm n into phasers, lasers
or barbarians, sweaty barbarians kling, rescueing g sm princesss. i love stuff that has litt more meat to the bones, so to speak. >> rose: do they nowust give you complete artistic control? >> i try to get it i try to get it. and ehituation has gottenincreasingly better. i feel very lucky now with ter and in the past with pedro to have beenroduced my two filmmakers i admire. and have produced as a producer, had produced filmmakers i adme like juan antonio, r example. >> rose: when you were here before weid this wonderful conversation. >> y. >> i was thinner then. >> rose: and you broug alg a couple of your pals from mico who also, giants in the film business. there has been this olution for you though. >> uh-hu >> rose: i mean u always were drew, yes? >> yes. >> rose: then you starte out doing stagehings. >> yeah, i did --. >> rose: building stag. >> well, wt i did whi
was curus, i used be doing short films that were very odd and required sets d creatures. d i taht myself to draw, to pai, toskull to build these thingsor my short films. and then people started lling me to do it on their films. and i did it for a while until i got cro was made. and company did all the effects d then i closed my company. >> ros i'm a filaker now. >> because i cld affor somebodylse. bu i still dwell on it. like, u know some sculptures hate had me because i wi come in with the calipers ani would measure each dimention on theculpture and te them th is wrong, thiss wron not that i can do it better, t i know enough that i can -- i know they cano it better. >> rose: so whats the quality th does it, a sense of proportionality >>n a way. to have a rely good sense of balance, the fit thi on any monster design,he first thing visually is the silhouette.
if we were to go by details i would say you figure out the silhette first. that is easy or hard to read but in anlegant way. if you want it to ep changing line thmonster is never clear, you want it to be a silhouett that depending the pulseor the tion shifts. oromething really beautiful and elent that can be read really quick. second ces the details. and people normally sculpt the detai first. i say no, , n't texture anything untile get the silhouette. then texture some color. d that is the way you progress that. >> rose: if i wentack to your childhood i mexico. >> yes. >> rose: . what a horror. >>ose: well s it a horror? it was. it was spiritually because i -- i grew you know, the catholic dea i got as a kid was really puzing. you know, you e four, five years old, six years old and somebodyells you, look, there is something we need to talk to you about which is called original sin. and we want you to know that you are going to pay for it.
and atonefor it the rest of your life. and i go oh, rely. and thenhey tell you an then y're going to die. and no matter what youdo yoare going to go to purgatoryee. >> ros what is in it for me. >> yes, exactly. and you know, so the chdhood was full of this sinister, very -- iean xican cath civil is really tortorous and well go, t iconogphy, is really brutal and gory and extre. you know, you hav this statutes of jesus laid out in aox glass. and he's purple with exposed bone and brus and -- bruises and bleedingnd it is really affecting. >> re: how did it effect your spiritualy or relige crossity. it does, because at the same time you get a sense, an imdiatempact that i morbid you know, you -- d then they tell you e you going to eat the flesh and drink e blood of that gtleman
there. and the presentatn is not exactly appealing. it's not like a buffet. it's laid out in a- an incrediblyhocking way. and u are 7,,ears old and then the say well, now come and lead thpledge of the world. >> rose: so you think religion should be marketed better. >> i don know. you know, iersefull - lams as a cathic. i am an aeist thank god once a catholic, alway a catholic. >> rose: so are yonot with him. >> no, ie lapsed enoug i believe inan. i believe in mkind as the worst anthe best that has happened to this world. >> ros your father was kidnapped for like 7 hours. >> no, 72 days. >> rose: 7days. >> 72 da. and it was quite a harring. but was - really believe i ve this strange theory that must be very cancelli that actually
pain shows you what you need. i lieve life gives you what you need, not what you want. we discoveredhis somewhere in the pas and ople think that getting what you want is grt. and i don't thk so. getting at you need. so ialways seehat is coming and whatever happen, i go, whacan i learn from this. and weecame a better, a stronger family after e kidnapping. and i became a stronger man after the kiapping. >> rose:o what do you need now? >> i don't know. it's coming. whatever -- i ll you, i -- i ally -- it's so weir i really abandon myselfo whatappens. >> rose: do you really? >> yeah, i don't --. >> rose: is it fate though or is it something ee? >> n i thinkou goto work a lot for wh you thk is right. but when thin come, you got to analyze and say why did itappen. why did it go that way. >> rose: don't you tnk some thing are just explicable? >> ihink that it's our task a it has been the ta of man to try and figure out a, why it
happened. how it happened. i'm t saying that you find th wisdom of it happening. but toind what should not be repeated from it happening. for example. and that's perfectly objective lesson tt we seemingldon't learn at all. because, you know, the fact thate have cstant cuural, physical, hum hocausts happening yr after year decade after dede shows that we have very little dire to really arn from any of that. >> rose: oka but let me just understand this. if for some reas something teible would happen to someone you love very much >> yes. >> i wou think aboutt. i would --. >> rose: wou you -- would you rationize it. >> no. >> rose: that somehow it was -- >> no, emotionally i wod not shy from it. in other words, i wod not -- you know --. >> rose: you open yourse to it. >> would. i think that if you don't live it, if you don't -- if you don't live that, tn thatain is going to be repeated later on a grander
scale. i ally believe it i mean it atrange belf but i convinced of it. and with my father's kidnapping we reay simply tried to become better. i mean se families are destroyed by kidnapping. >> rose: rig. >> we saw it. some other familie that --. >> rose: in mexico. >> in meco. some familiesompletely get torned by it. e sons don't want to pay e ransom or they want to find a way to find financing that is secure. and we mpletely just took it as ourifeask to rescue him n matter what. >> rose: so what hapned in your case? >> well, he ca back. he had to pay twice. we paid once and then they to us now you have to uble the money. out othe blue. and we paid the second time and heame back and the night he came back, is one of e mt beautiful moments. it is one ment when he came back and he really was my father, like i've
never seenim sin or before. was completely open. i got glimpse o him. beuse he is a very strong guy but he's a very closed guy. and got glimpse ofim that i would ner forget. >> rose:o what do you thk, love or pain has the most impact on us? >> i think both. i really thi the fact that we live in a society that tells yo all the time that pain is bad, that you should y away from it, that coort is great. it's horfying for me cause i think that y don'shy awayfrom comfort or fromain. you should take whatev comes your way. ani think that a better proach. when people tellou for youromfort -- and you dre through, you eat this, you -- everything seems to be drive-threw. >> rose: in some ways coort is soft, too. >> it is. this coming fro a f n may sound suspicious. >> re: fat man. >>bsolutely. yeah, mr. exercise, you know. but you ow, hink, for example, e of the things i
have done or do carson mccaller theeart is a lonely hunter. >> rose: absolutely. >> i would love too that book as movie. i love the old movie with alan arcin and sana lock but i think t book is s much more full of possibilities. that type of story i would love to do. >> rose: so at are you dog to do it? you announce yowant to do it, that's good. >> i not going to tackle it next. but i really, i fd that yoknow, i'll get to it
en it feels nural. i , for example, attracte to crime, crime literature. >> rose: no kidding. chuck hogan writes crime literature. >> prince of thieves, i love that. >> rose: go off onthis taent for a secretary. how did you end up with him writing thstrain. i really love the fact that chuck was a rely immersve writer. i readis novels. i thought he was incredibly strong on factual stu. and i sent him what i h. and i said wouldou like partne like literally cowre this with me. and he had reawhat i had. and he loved it. and we met in new york. anwe talked for abou four urs. and then we started working through e-mail ich i do often. and i haveritten 17 screenays or cowritten. and every time we send back and forth docents. >> rose: on e-ma. >> yea on e-mail. and i would wre chapters. he would writehapters. we would sd the to each other, correct each other,
edit eh other. >> rose: is this better than having oneision and one person's imagination >> i enj it because as long as -- look, listen, it's really horribleo say. as lg as i'm the director -- youknow what i'm saying. it's le,t's like really democratic untilt comes to the final moment. then it's dictatorshi >> rose: syou know, as long as you kn the ultimate decisiois yours, you're happy >> yh, i am. but i really -- iam a benign dictator. i do listen. >> rose:ou listen but in the end. >> yeah, but for exale, chuck ca up with one of the great characters in the nove which is a rat catch in new york city. that becomes one of the main protagist that realizes whatoing on. and it such a by sfwlar aracter. he came with that. >> rose: aat catcher. a rat catcher, you know, anxterminater. and he realizes what is going on. d i fell in love with him. i have nothing to with his creation. he came up with i and so on and soorth. you know, we argued. i tually argued with him a lot of tis on himutting
back stuff. >> rose: you were tryi to get him to put it back. >> there was stuffe took out on one pass an i said we need that. ther from me or from him. i would argue. i really enjoyhe hell t of writing this book. >> rose: but you hav written these scenplays as you talked about. but was this -- is writing as satfying as directi? >> i tell you, it's a different feel >> re: of course. >> but i love it. i am now, i am now what i am doing imy mornings,'m writing short ories or lile, fleshing out in the literary form stuff. because look, t of those 17 seenplays or16 jean plays, whatever it i, i ve only made seven movies. meang that nine movies have been written and they are really beautiful documents. but nobody is going to read them. nody goes i found an unproduced screenplay, who is theighest bidder. it doesn't happen. >> rose: not going happe >> nobody find the great
movie that or son wells ver did. i mean they find it, but you don'find about --. >> rose: explain that, need to understand tha let's assume that oron wells had been woing on something. >> which he was. rose: he was, exactly. no one will ever be able to make tt. >> they do it, they do it but 's not any more an or son wells movie. i mean george -- i think shot onef the screenpla wells had and proud. but as aiterary form, they're going to aays stay halfway there. and i rely find writing this way, i find th they have liefer of their own. and they a complete in one way. i mean i love the ft that we haveo ratings. no -- no constrictns. ian intro specific with the ca screenplays are always written in psent tense. >> rose: right. >> you are saying geor walks to the window. and you can,f you say something strange like there is an aura of manti in the
room. yohave to say the room is dimly lit. there is a whumming sound, you know,ou have to make it plausible to objecvize thos things. and the libeting thing about this is can tell you, i ca objectivize and describend useetaphor. i'm free to dotuff that i find incredibly lerating. am enjoying it. >> rose: now is is going toe any kind of -- i mean what will this ad to, the rain? >> well, we -- when i plottethat, i ptted three books. i plotted the idea, the idea of --. >> rose: you are an entrepreneur, is wh are you. >> no, because i really -- i said let's get vampires out of the system on and for all,ou knowlike, i've been putting little bi here, little bits there, let's put itll out. d i am ambitio bycious with that. i wanus to reinvent an oblique mythology that allows you to see the orin of vamres as spiritu and physal creatures in a way
that hast been done fore. this book, aside from the morbid detail and attention to anatomy and biology tha i think is uniqu in it, al has,or example, a unique and really harrowing detail, atntion to detai on each of the drainings of the victims. i real want toput you on the place, you know, because vampire fictn mostf th sometime deal with it like a form of copulation. they say i rushomes over here body. >> it is erotic. >> it very erotic. and is is as erotic as a leh draining a c ree sun, little -and for you to feel that are you being essentially drained of life is not a pleasant experience. and i descre them in a way in a way thatscentral but no sexual. you i want to put youhere.
i want you to knowhat it feels to have the thumpg chest of the vampire against you as it feels eited aboudraining you. but at t same me you're dying. and thefingers cork screwing the hair and pulling tight. i mean it is really incredibly pervee, the book. vampires in is book are as rontic as rectal cancer, you knowbsolutely brutal, brutal creatures. >> rose: is there a definitive documentary or book abo vampires? >> i think therere several. my favorites are, as i said, in t nonliterary form in the factual vampir books there is onebook that was published in t 1700s that is a treaties aboutpirits, demons a vampires very dgy priest called-- anotherodgy priest really dodgy, a guy sers wrote several treaties. the vampire in eure,
vampire, his ks and kin. natural story of vampireism by edwards. passport to the supernatural by berrd herwo. all these are really great books to read. >> rose: listen is. dedicated to lenza. >> my wife. >> rose: mariana >> my ughter. >> rose: marisa. >> my other daughter. >> rose: and to l the monsters in my nursery. yes. >> rose: may youever leave me alone. >> that's extly right. >> rose: you want them ner leave them alone. >> i wanmy daughtersnd althe creatures. >> rose: you havyour daughters and ur wife. >> and i need my monsters. >> rose:y monsters. >> absolutely. >> rose: you're going toe okay. >> i would be very lonely. >> rose: her's a great beginninfor a novel. here's a great beginning for a novel. y this out. once upon a time -- >> hey. i think i has some validity. i'm going to register that.
rose: just as one cl, the aforemention great show that you and i did, hereit is, ll te. >> one morning a 6:00.m. inhe morni strangely one guy called m and said you know, your fill some a masterpiece but you need to take out the secon story of it. everything o. i said are you crazy? u know, so i aire you but -- so during the next ten days, i don't know why so early h called me jt like going on aut what to take out. are you so great. you ould -- and i had been in my house editing by self seven months and i was gting crazy and the film was two hours and 45 minutes and i need to take down. so one day he shs up. he knocks on the door, io up and the is this guy with t eyes like kid like that. hi, i gee airo del to. sow wentdirectly to the reigerator. he ate like tons of food. my wife was like completely panicked. and i enjoyed the next three days le my happiest day in
my life, fighting every day and helped me really at the end to shapehe film. >> that a true story. >> it . >> rose: t confidence and argance to say you got to ke this out. >> alphonso caed me. alphonso cled me and said lo there is this guy that is brilliant but he is so stubborn that think the only guy that he is as stubborn as him is y. d essentially it was king kong snds again godzilla. alphonsoet it up. and he was, you know, was sending me to the deed. i was his merceny. and iwent there and you know, we disreed. acally what is great, what is great is he says we tk out three --e startedy saying3 minutes. they were 206789 he said 13 in the fir interview. second interview i heard him, he sai 7. last ierview i hadhim he said 3. rit? now the great thing is en i med all my stuff out of the house into my m cave, i found a great artifact. i found the original pe
of -- when iaw it first and it's 20 minus. 20 -- l he hand rock is 20 mutes. >> i youave the tape. >> i he the tape. >> all right, the book is called" the strain "guillermo del to and chuck hogonho has written a number of books, i will giveou titles you may cognize. the killing moon, prince of thieve the bloodartist d the standoff. thank you and mh ccess. >> a please and a di in the future. >> i will comcheck on you in new zealand. >> pleaseo. >> tha you for joining u see you next time.