of all of the appellate courts, has ruled, the president has to give this over. all of the other courts are going be following this ruling. i think the president is going to have a really tough time continuing to resist in the courts. >> is that weeks or months mieke, that this could be happening? give us a time frame. >> the president may try and appeal but i think the supreme court can be very quick in saying no thank you, we're not taking this case and the ruling will stand, in which case they will have to comply. >> jeff mason, scott wong, mieke, thank you, stick around more news after the break. and a terrifying scene in new orleans. you have to take a look at this. it captures this video, a moment of when the construction site sees this structure collapse, and you can see the crane swaying as part of what was supposed to be a brand new hardrock hotel, following to the street, it is early on, and one person is dead. right now, a search is under way for more than a dozen missing. we will stay on top of this. nbc correspondent alli vitali is at the scene in ne

and that's why both the trial judge and the appellate judge that heard the case today expressed incredulity what the president is essentially saying that he is above the law. that's not how we do things in the united states of america. >> i want to play for you a guy that had you still been at the justice department, would have been your boss. he was, in fact, chief law enforcement officer for our country briefly. this is former acting attorney general whitaker on what is a crime. >> i'm a former prosecutor. and what i know is this is a perfect time for a preliminary hearing where you would say show us your evidence. what evidence of a crime do you have? you mean the constitution -- you know, sort of abuse of power is not a crime. >> okay, counselor. question number two. abuse of power is not a crime constitutionally. true or false? >> well, it's not a crime in the sense that you can go to the united states criminal code and find that listed. but ask president andrew johnson. ask president richard nixon. abuse of power was included in both of their drafted articles of impeachment. the stand

the first opportunity trump has to delay is to petition the appellate court for reconsideration on bonk. that means full court, and i bet his attorneyless do that. why? because it builds in yet another hearing that will take more time before ultimately it's appealed to the. see court. an enbanc rehearing means they were take all of the judges that sit on the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals and there may be as many as 14 or 15 of them and re-argue the case to all of those judges to see if all of those judges agree with the two out of the three judges that voted against trump in the first instance. assuming they go through that process that will take some time. if the entire court sitting enbaue enbanc against president trump his lawyers will undoubtedly appeal. the. see court doesn't have to accept it for review and say we see no significant constitutional interest involved that would warrant us actually hearing this case. i predict, however, this is one of those cases of first impression as we say. i suspect the supreme court would exercise its jurisdiction and, again, this whole

to be able to get the tax returns but stay while the appellate court makes the ultimate decision. i think this case is important for two reasons. one, it might lead to prosecutors finally getting the tax records after all the litigation is done. the public wouldn't see it because they're part of a grand jury information. but prosecutors would get their hands on it. second, katy, this might ultimately lead whether a sitting president can be charged with a crime. we know that the department of justice policy is that he or she can be. the supreme court never decided that. maybe now it will. >> very interesting. david, let's just back up a beat though. remind us why the manhattan d.a. wanted these tax returns. >> he's looking into something that happened in 2016. these two women who alleged they had affairs with donald trump got hush money payments right before the 2016 election to buy their silence and later on, we've learned those payments were directed by michael cohen, trump's attorney at the time and that cohen actually paid starmy daniels, one of the two women the hush money pay

for term limits, don't forget, justices used to retire like everybody else to a rotation off the appellate bench. >>> and while bernie sanders defended his health, joe biden and elizabeth warren were asked if their age would affect their presidency. >> last month, jimmy carter said he would not be able to undertake the duties of president at 80 years old. why do you think you can. >> because i've watched it, i've been engaged. look, one of the reasons i'm running is because of my age and experience. with it comes withdo s withdom. we need someone to take office who on day one can stand on the world stage, command the respect of world leaders like putin and our allies who knows what needs to be done. >> 40% of voters think a candidate under the age of 70 is more likely to defeat president trump. what do you say to them? >> well, i will say, that i will outwork, outorganize and outlast anyone. and that includes donald trump, mike pence or whoever the republicans get stuck with. >> all right. switching over to the topic of impeachment, george p. kent, the senior state department official with

court would have it quickly, and then you could also & for an expedited appeal to the appellate intermediate court and to the supreme court. but that process doesn't mean that the democrats or house in general couldn't impeach or issue articles of impeachment in the interim. they could always amend those or issue a superseding set of articles of impeachment just like a prosecutor could issue sup supersedings and indictments. we saw this with mueller probe. this doesn't necessarily slow down the house process. and mr. trump doesn't even control -- even white house witnesses, they can decide for themselves to actually comply with these dprlgs subpoenas and people in the private sector can decide to comply. so we don't have a situation like with white water where i worked where we have ken starr handing congress a whole basically tome of data and information. congress is doing this in realtime as we speak and the information is going to continue to come out, so just sort of obstructing these subpoenas i don't think is going to get the white house to put basically a lid on this process. >> let m

for your run of the mill civil case, it could take years to run through the appel at courts. when you look at the aggressive policy to petition for rehearings and then appeal and appeal to the supreme court. again, these are all, in many courts, new issues of law that have not yet been addressed. the normal deference you see lower courts being afforded may not happen here. >> good to see you, guys. the two candidates who may have the most at stick in this week's presidential debate is up next on "up" with david gura. up" wit. with dodge power dollars buy any challenger, charger, or durango and get ten bucks cash allowance for every one horsepower. billions of problems. dry mouth? parched mouth? cotton mouth? there's a therabreath for you. therabreath oral rinse and lozenges. help relieve dry mouth using natural enzymes to soothe and moisturize. so you can... breathe easy, there's therabreath at walmart. o♪ ozempic®! ♪ oh! oh! (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults l

the event the appellate court is asked to take up the same question. but just reading some of the headings alone, richard, there are sections that say and i quote, disclosure of these materials is necessary to avoid injustice. that's one of the sections. there's a section that it says, the house judiciary committee has a particularized need for these requested materials. and i won't go on to read them all but there's another section. the heading of which is, no house impeachment inquiry resolution is required. and we have heard the republicans complaining over and over again about how there needs to be this official vote on a resolution. the judge, chief judge barrel howell said wrong under the law. i've been saying all along, richard, the state of our judiciary is strong and judge howell just proved that once again with this really thorough, authoritative, 75-page order. >> one of those statements, not a long sentence, she says, doj is wrong. in three words, no more than that. natalie, if you look at the headline coming out of that particular opinion

to appeal to the appellate level. we don't know how far it will go beyond this. the basic theory of the administration's case is the president cannot be subject to criminal investigations, criminal inquiries while he is president. the thing is that the district attorney in new york doesn't buy that and he's not under the department of justice's control. you have this ruling from the federal district court judge where he was quite firm in rejecting this argument. i'm going to read one of the quotes for you, because this court finds such aspects of such a doctrine repugnant to the nation's governmental structure and constitutional value. it abstains from adjudicating this dispute and dismisses the president's suit. just to give a big overview, hallie, and i know you and i have talked about this a lot, but what the district attorney wants is documents to he can get the tax returns for president donald trump to figure out if any state laws were broken in the payment to stormy daniels, the trump administration eventually a

i think the appellate courts will move quickly on it. one of the white house's allegations is this is completely improper. and now we have federal court ruling. no, it is not improper. this is appropriate. so we can build on that. i do think it will be done quickly. it will provide clarity for everybody. we need that. >> the best quote is getting these to his political enemies. he goes this is a drug deal. wait a second. national security adviser to the president is describing an act as a drug deal. we have to get him in front of the public. this would be a great testimony. >> last question on this point. looking to the "washington post", incredible piece about the degree to which the republicans in the house have been slandering these witnesses, trying to bring things back to conspiracy theories. how much is that sticking? this ferment of conspiracy theories on the hill. . >> i would be surprised they show a fair amount of support for the impeachment, even for removing trump before he is impeached and tried. so i think what's happening

circuit court, they lost 2 to 1 in an appellate case whether the president's financial firm have to hand over the tax returns to congress. they lost a district court case about a new role in which they want immigrants to have to certify there won't be a public charge meaning they can pay for their health insurance and lost another district court. is this normal for an administration to lose this much? >> can i go back to glen's point? >> please, yes. >> maga, making attorneys get attorneys. >> it's nice. i love it, i love it. >> it's been a blistering day for the trump administration, so there were three really important cases. the d.c. circuit case where the judges both ruled that the administration had to comply with the subpoenas from congress. the only person to dissent on that three judge panel was a newly appointed judge and a trump appointee, former member of the federalist society, not a surprise perhaps. >> took brett kavanaugh's seat. >> really took his seat. so they were very clear in their decision tat the president was not above the law. and one of the things really interest