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Shrink Rap Radio #274 October 9th, 2011 "The Secret 
Lives of the Brain" 

David Van Nuys Ph.d."Dr. Dave" interviews David Eagleman 

Introduction: Do you really know why you do the things that you 

do? You probably think that you do. I think most of us think that or 
at least that's how we behave most of the time. Even though we have 
heard that Freud had this notion of unconscious motivation. In fact he 
gave the illustration of an iceberg that only maybe 5 percent is above 
the surface and the remaining 95 percent is below the surface of 
consciousness in this case. And even though he was trained as a 
neurologist, he didn't really have the tools that exist today. For 
example, he didn't have the FMRI or functional magnetic resonance 
imaging machine. So maybe you think you know why you do the 
things you do or maybe you think that the whole business about the 
unconscious is just for people with emotional problems. Well, today's 
guest offers a much expanded view of the unconscious using the 
modern tools that are available today. My guest is brain scientist 
David Eagleman Ph.d and he holds joint appointments under the 
Departments of Neuroscience and Psychiatry at the Baylor College of 
Medicine in Flouston, Texas. Dr. Eagleman's areas of research include 
time perception, vision, synesthesia, and the intersection of 
neuroscience and the legal system. Fie directs the laboratory for 
perception and action and is the founder and director of Baylor College 
of Medicine's "Initiative on Neuroscience and the Law". Now I got onto 
Dr. Eagleman as the result of a fascinating profile of the man and his 
work in the New Yorker magazine. Which led me to his newly released 
book, "Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain". I feel fortunate to 
been able to speak to this very busy and prolific scientist. Now here is 
our conversation. 



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Dr. Dave: Dr. David Eagleman, welcome to Shrink Rap Radio. 
Eagleman: Thank you, good to be here. 

Dr. Dave: Well, I am so pleased to have this opportunity to speak with 
you. I enjoyed your interview with Terry Gross, the profile of you and 
of your work in the New Yorker, and so I'm really pleased to be able 
to grab a bit of your time. And I've been reading your rather 
wonderful book, "Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain". So what 
do you mean by the 'secret lives of the brain'. 

Eagleman: Well, it turns out that pretty much everything your 

brain is doing is running under the hood of conscious awareness; your 
brain is constantly performing these tremendously complex operations 
that you have no access to or no acquaintance with so you know, 
when you do something really simple like pick up a telephone to your 
ear, it's underpinned by a lightening storm of neural activity but you 
don't detect any of that and if it weren't for biology, we wouldn't even 
have any reason to suspect the existence of muscles or nerves or 
electrical signals because it's all totally invisible to us and of course it's 
not just motor acts like picking up the telephone, but it's recognizing a 
friends face or falling in love or making any of the decisions we do or 
the beliefs we have or the actions we chose to make. All of these 
things are underpinned by these massive operations that we are just 
not aware of. All we ever receive is the sort of end product and this is 
what we think of as the conscious mind but the conscious mind it turns 
out is the smallest bit of what is happening. . . 

Dr. Dave: . . . didn't Freud . . . 

Eagleman: ... in the brain . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . .yeah, didn't Freud say something very similar to that, 
that we're mostly unaware of the processes that drive us? 


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Eagleman: Exactly right. You know, I went back and I did a 

historical analysis. Freud is really the first person to nail this and get 
this idea right. There are little hints about the unconscious starting 
from even St. Augustine who realized that he had sort of a full model 
of how humans act and with their rational behavior but he realized 
there was a little flaw in his model when people would do things like 
laugh suddenly at a joke or sneeze or hiccup or something he couldn't 
quite explain in his model. And so he started suspecting something 
but then the idea kind of got dropped for many decades and then it 
got picked up sort of every hundred years. Somebody started to 
suspecting that maybe in order to understand human behavior, we'd 
have to imagine that there is a part we don't have access to but Freud 
was really the first person to nail that idea and he was right. Fie of 
course lived before the blossoming of modern neuroscience so we 
know a lot more now about the details and the possibilities there. Fie 
was only able to speculate on things. Of course many particular ideas 
he had about what the subconscious represented, many of those 
have fallen out of favor. I my view of it, I just I find it so weird, it's 
essentially that the subconscious speaks a completely alien kind of 
programming language that wouldn't make sense to us even if we 
could understand it. As opposed to the view that the subconscious is 
speaking some sort of language that we get but it's speaking in 
metaphors or something. It really seems like it's, it's just a 
completely foreign thing going on down there. I like to think that in 
some ways it's analogous to what happens with, let's say, with the 
quantum mechanics which is the physics of what happens at the very 
small level, the subatomic scale. 

Dr. Dave: Yeah, well, there are different levels as you are alluding to 
and I think that one level may be suitable for one kind of 
understanding or explanation and another level for another because I 
know there is a section in your book on reductionism and that'll 
probably take us way off in a direction that we don't need to go right 

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now. 

Eagleman: Okay. But that is exactly right. There are different 

levels. It turns out that the fabric of reality that we come to 
understand either in physics or in neuroscience, can be very distant 
and in some sense not even related to the sort of reality that we 
experience at our spatial-temporal scales where we care about, apples 
and rabbits and mates and rivers, that's all we really have evolved to 
care about but it turns out that all the underling stuff that makes that 
true is totally different language. 

Dr. Dave: Yes, and your book is so rich with examples of that and one 
that I particularly loved was the example of the men who looked at 
photos of women and were asked to choose the prettiest ones. Maybe 
you can tell us about that experiment. 

Eagleman: Yes, so men were looking at these 8 x 10 photographs 

of women's faces and what they didn't know was that there were two 
sets of photographs that had the same women in them but in ones 
that the women's eyes had been dilated. And it turns out that the 
men were uniformly more attracted to the women with dilated eyes. 
And the interesting part is that the men, none of them identified that, 
none of them said, oh, I noticed her pupils were larger over here, but 
more importantly, none of the men had any conscious access to this 
issue that dilated eyes is a sign of sexual readiness in women. So 
their brains were picking up on the signals loud and clear and driving 
their behavior and making them think that these women were more 
attractive. Their brains were running these deeply imbedded 
evolutionary programs that drove the men towards the right sort of 
behavior but the men, the conscious men had no access to what was 
going on, they just felt more attracted over here. 

Dr. Dave: Yeah, I thought that was just a wonderful demonstration of 
what you're talking about. Most of us think our senses are a window 


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to the real world, to the world outside ourselves. But that is not 
exactly the case, is it? 

Eagleman: That's exactly right. When we start deconstructing 

what's going on out there, it comes clear that everything you -- take 
vision. It's a construction of the brain, I mean, your brain is 
ensconced in darkness, inside of your scull and all it ever sees are 
electrical signals. And of course, the electrical signals that it sees that 
represent the information coming in through your eyes, is the same 
electrical signals that you have coming in from your ears, your 
fingertips, or any other part. And your brain has to take these signals 
and depending on their different features and so on, it constructs 
vision or hearing or so on but it's all an internal model of what you 
believe you're seeing out there. Just as one example, that I think 
illustrates it usually is take the fact that your eyes are constantly 
jumping around the scene and yet your vision doesn't feel the way it 
does when somebody is holding a jerky video camera, right? I mean, 
if somebody were moving the video camera around the way your eyes 
actually move, you'd barf. So the reason that our visual world doesn't 
appear to be moving around, is because all we're actually seeing is an 
internal model of what we believe is out there and we're just updating 
that model with different information depending on where we are 
casting our central vision and collecting more information. But you 
don't need your eyes at all to see of course, when you're dreaming, 
and your eyes are closed, you're having full, rich visual experience and 
what this illustrates is that it's not even about the eyes. When your 
eyes open, you're pulling in data through these 2 holes in your skull 
and you're updating your model a little bit better, but it's essentially 
the same process as awake dreaming. 

Dr. Dave: You know, your observation that the brain is encased in 
darkness within the skull seems so obvious and basic but I have to 
say, I never thought of it that way before. 


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Eagleman: (laughs) Yeah. 

Dr. Dave: So that's kind of interesting. And you also say that vision's 
job is to create a useful narrative at our scale of interaction. 

Eagleman: That's exactly right. That's all it's trying to do. This is 

proposed to be the basis of why we have consciousness and memory is 
simply to upgrade predictions so the whole key is we want to be better 
prepared the next time we come across a situation and so we have all 
these mechanisms that sort of take their time and write down a story 
and tell us what they think just happened out there so that we'll be 
better prepared the next time. Now we come around to it but it turns 
out that it's not necessarily the correct story and of course we know 
that memory is quite fallible. 

Dr. Dave: Yes. 

Eagleman: Yeah, but . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . . yeah and also it may not really be the current story 
because you say we're living in the past because it actually takes time 
for our senses to send their messages to the brain and some senses 
are further away than others and so there are sort of these different 
time frames. 

Eagleman: Exactly. This is what my lab discovered over the last 

11 years or so is this really deep problem that information gets to the 
brain at different speeds through different senses and it's processed 
very differently. Your visual system has a very different architecture 
than your auditory system for example. And a signal from your big 
toe arrives at your brain much later than a signal from your nose. And 
so it turns out that the challenge the brain has to deal with is it's 
trying to put together this narrative about what the heck is going on in 
the outside world and yet the problem it's confronted with is that the 

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signals are streaming at very different times and so the only solution 
is-- this is what we've figured out over the last decade-- the only 
solution is that your brain has to wait and collect up all the information 
and then stitch together a story about what it thinks it just saw and 
the consequence is that you're living in the past. By the time you 
believe the moment now occurs, it's already happened a long time 
ago. 

Dr. Dave: Yeah. One of my listeners just so happens coincidentally 
yesterday, sent me an email saying he was asking various people the 
question, "what is consciousness?" And I just read your book and I 
think, oh, what did Eagleman say? I didn't quite remember, I had to 
come up with my own but what is consciousness? 

Eagleman: (laughs) Well, people debate a lot about the definition 

but I think it's easy to understand that it's the thing that flickers to life 
when you wake up in the morning. So your brain is the same when 
you're in a deep sleep and when you're awake in the morning but 
there's some different algorithms, some different software program 
that running that makes you conscious now and not conscious in the 
middle of the night. So that's what we're talking about is that bit, that 
bit of having experience, private subjective experience that's going on. 
That's what we mean by consciousness. And . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . .and what the role of consciousness? 

Eagleman: Well, I think that consciousness is essentially like the 

CEO of a company. So once a company reaches sufficient complexity, 
it needs a CEO to organize things and that's seems to be the job of 
consciousness. In a same way that a CEO doesn't know about all the 
details of how this department actually runs and where the sockets are 
in the cubicles, and who's doing what and how they're getting paid, 
the CEO doesn't want to know about all that. In the same way you 
don't want to know about the lightening storm of neural activity when 


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you pick up the telephone. You just want to know that its worked. 

The CEO also sets the long-terms goals for the company and says 
okay, look, here's where I think our company needs to go over the 
next 5 years and the CEO passes that mandate and then all the rest of 
the machinery of the company adjusts itself to match that goal. And it 
takes time. But of course this is what we do. If you say that you 
decide you want to be a better tennis player and you hire a coach so 
the coach tells you all this advice like okay, step forward into the serve 
and grip your racket lower and so on, so consciously the CEO, the 
conscious you says okay, step forward, grip the racket lower and so on 
and you do that a bunch of times and what you are doing is you're 
training up the rest of the machinery of your unconscious brain, your 
training all that up you're forcing it to meet that goal and it eventually 
becomes good at it, it becomes automatized and then you no longer 
even have conscious access to it. You don't know how you are hitting 
the tennis ball, you're just doing it. And it's the same way that the 
CEO set the long-term goals and the rest of the company adjusts and 
all the CEO ever really wants is to high-level summary, headlines of 
how things are going. 

Dr. Dave: Yes, I guest that's what you meant when you wrote that 
consciousness is useful in limited amounts and so it really doesn't 
serve us to be aware of everything down to the most minute levels 
and to automatize as much as can be made automatic as is useful. 

And also, it's interesting to reflect that how much is going on around 
us that our senses don't even pick up on. For example, we're both 
probably bathed in radio waves and TV waves and gamma radiation 
and who know what else and that's not even fitting into the picture of 
our internal experience. 

Eagleman: Exactly right. So all that stuff, the radio waves, TV 

and cell phone all that, is electromagnetic radiation which is exactly 
what visible light is. What we call visible light is just a very small slice 
of that spectrum of electromagnetic radiation but it just so happens 


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that we have biological receptors that can detect that stuff so that we 
treat that very especially and we think that represents reality. But as 
it turns out, the part of the spectrum that we call visible light, is only 
one 10 billionth of the spectrum. So most of the stuff happening we 
don't have biological receptors for and so we would have no reason to 
even suspect its existence if it weren't for building of machines and the 
understanding of physics and so on. 

Dr. Dave: Okay, well, talking about a consciousness, were does 
attention fit in? There's some kind of tight relationship there I think 
between consciousness and attention. How would you describe that? 

Eagleman: I think what attention is is this thing that pulls more 

detail into your internal model. 

Dr. Dave: Um humm 

Eagleman: For example, let's say you are looking at a scene in 

front of you, you're not actually seeing most of the details even though 
they're sitting right on your retina. But if I were to ask you, okay, 
what exactly is the color of your coffee mug? Then you can turn your 
eyes to that and attention is the process of saying, okay, I'm going to 
now pull that detail into my internal model even though it wasn't there 
a moment ago. But similarly, if I were to ask you the position of your 
tongue in your mouth right now, you could answer that question but 
you weren't aware of it a moment ago. You attend to it, you pay 
attention to it and that's how it becomes part of what your aware of . 

Dr. Dave: . . .and now I'm gagging on my tongue. 

Eagleman: (laughs) 

Dr. Dave: Once I become aware of it. (laughs) 


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Eagleman: Exactly. Well, then I won't talk about blinking or 

breathing, because that would be terrible. 

Dr. Dave: Right. 

Eagleman: But it turns out that, when the company is running 

itself perfectly, the CEO doesn't need to know anything. If the CEO 
has everything set up so things are going perfectly, you don't need 
any action out of the CEO. In other words, when you're driving to 
work, it's just a normal morning, you're essentially not very conscious 
of what's going on. Because you don't need to be. And what happens 
is it's only when there's a violation of your expectations, that attention 
comes online and feeds information to consciousness. So it's only 
when suddenly something's different, or there's an overturned car in 
front of you or something, then suddenly, your attending to that 
because it's a violation of your expectations and you have conscious 
awareness of that situation. 

Dr. Dave: What's the relationship between attention and memory? 

Eagleman: Interesting question. It turns out there's at least two 

different forms of memory. And so normal memory is a function of 
what you're attending to so it is possible to get stuff into the system 
without even attending to it but that's sort of a rare, more rare thing 
that happens. Normally, what you remember are the things you'd paid 
attention to. If you didn't pay attention to the number of cracks in the 
sidewalk this morning, then it's unlikely you're going to have any 
memory of that. But it turns out that when something is really salient, 
really emotionally salient, let's say a car accident. Then you are 
attending to that with a completely different level of focus and there's 
another part of your brain that comes online and lays down memory 
on a secondary memory tract. And this is the amygdala comes online 
and you're essentially laying down memories on a different way that 
are unerasable. So these are the memories of post traumatic stress . . 


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Dr. Dave: . . .urn hmmm 
Eagleman: , , , disorder . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . . right, right . . . 

Eagleman: . . .yeah 

Dr. Dave: And what about meditation and mindfulness as tools for 
developing more awareness of some of these underlying processes? 

Eagleman: Well, I'm a big proponent of meditation and 

mindfulness. I've noticed in the literature and even in discussion that 
no one has ever has anything bad to say about these things. So I 
think that . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . .right . . 

Eagleman: You know, everything else is debated, right? Should 

you have carbs or protein or not but not meditation or mindfulness. 
These seem to be just really good things and in fact [undecipherable 
name] in Germany is trying to get legislation passed to make 
meditation mandatory for all elementary school students. 

Dr. Dave: Um hmm 

Eagleman: Because he argues that it's an important part of the 

brain tool kit and you don't get a user's guide to your brain but in fact 
especially in this era, everybody's trying to get your attention with 
advertising in the Internet, text messages, and so on and here is what 
children need more than ever now is a way of just being able to turn 
inward and not be so reactive to the outside world. And this is what 
meditation gives you is an ability to sort of see the outside world but 
not be as reactive to it. Every time a text message dings it changes 


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your trajectory for the next minute. So now that said, I do think that 
even people who are expert meditators, they're getting slightly down 
deeper into their unconscious but I don't think it's very far at all. I 
think it's essentially just dipping their toes into the water. They're 
doing it a lot better than the rest of us but in fact these are such vast 
waters and deep caverns that I think they are not actually getting that 
far because as I said at the beginning, I don't actually think that we 
would understand the language down there. 

Dr. Dave: Yes. Now, one of the things that you spend a fair amount 
of time on is the idea of multiple selves that were again going back to 
the subtitle of the book "the secret lives of the brain" that there are 
sort of autonomous subsystems and subroutines that are running sort 
of beneath the surface of consciousness and I'm just wondering about 
the possible relationship to things like multiple personality, automatic 
writing, channeled personality, some of that far-out stuff. 

Eagleman: Yeah, I mean, the interesting part about the multiple 

selves is that the only way to really think about the brain is to think 
about; you got these competing networks that are always battling out 
in the brain to control your behavior. And this is because evolution 
doesn't sort of come up with one solution and stop there but she's 
constantly, chronically, reinventing solutions to things. And so it turns 
out that you end up with all these different parts of your brain and it's 
just like a neuro parliament where you have different political parties 
that are fighting it out to control the ship of state, to steer where 
things are going. And you don't have any central leader that makes 
these decisions about the parliament and instead they debate and until 
they come to some sort of solution. And so as a result, people can 
argue with themselves, and feel conflicted with themselves, and 
contract with themselves, cajole themselves, and I think this gives us 
a much more nuanced view of who we are when you realize that you 
are not one thing you're more like a multiplicity and some of those 
people who got back on their behavior and they think, how did I, how 


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could I have been the one to do that? Well, the answer is you are not 
one thing. As Walt Whitman correctly surmised, he said, "I am large, I 
contain multitudes" and that's exactly right. 

Dr. Dave: Well, there are people who report for example, writing 
whole books that they claim it really wasn't them, it just came through 
them. Do you think there might be some kind of a subsystem that 
spun off ... ? 

Eagleman: . . .yeah . . . 

Dr. Dave: . . .that it's coming from . . .? 

Eagleman: I mean, so okay here's what I think. I think it's a little 

bit of an exaggeration when people say they wrote things without 
having any part of themselves in them. But it is the case that all of 
our ideas are served up from the subterranean caverns and we don't 
know where these ideas come from, right? So pay attention to your 
next time you have a good idea and you say, oh, I'm a genius, I just 
had an idea that I'll invite so-and-so to be on my show. Well, it wasn't 
really you that thought of it, right? Your brain has been working on 
this for hours or weeks or months, it's been consolidating information, 
you've seen that speaker before, at some point, your brain puts it 
together and serves it up and then you take credit for it. But it's not 
clear who the credit actually belongs to. It belongs to you as a person 
with a brain, but it doesn't necessarily belong to your conscious mind. 

Dr. Dave: Right. I totally identify with that. What do we learn from 
the example of Charles Whitman the former Eagle scout and high IQ. 
bank teller who shot and killed 48 people from the University of Texas 
tower in Austin. 

Eagleman: Well, he had detected that things were changing 

inside of him for about a year. He was writing in his diary about this, 


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he went to see a psychiatrist about this, he felt like something was 
changing inside of him. And he wrote in his suicide note the night 
before, the night before he went up on the Texas tower and shot 
everybody, he said when this is all over, I want an autopsy to be 
performed. And that is exactly what happened and it turned out that 
he had a brain tumor. The brain tumor had been growing and 
pressing against the part of his brain called the amygdala which is 
involved in fear and aggression. And so we, there are hundreds of 
cases like this. It turns out of course, when your brain changes, you 
change and if you get a brain tumor which is of course the not 
something you choose, any of us would choose to get, that can change 
your behavior and it leaves a strain part of these very deep questions 
about culpability, right? 

Dr. Dave: Yes. 

Eagleman: Because Whitman didn't choose to get a brain tumor 

and yet this is what happened. And of course Whitman is not a one- 
off example. There's so many I state another case in my book also 
about this guy who at 40 years old started becoming a pedophile. And 
started collecting child pornography and he eventually made an 
inappropriate move on his prepubescent step-daughter and his wife 
had him arrested. And the night before his sentencing, he was having 
these terrible headaches and he finally went to get a scan and turned 
out he had a massive frontal lobe tumor. So they did an emergency 
surgery on him and they removed the tumor and his sexual behavior 
returned completely to normal. And then about 6 months later, he 
started becoming a pedophile again. And he went back to the 
neurologist and it turns out the surgeons had missed a section of the 
tumor which was now regrowing and they resecting the tumor a 
second time and then his behavior returned completely to normal. So 
this is just another illustration of hundreds that you are your brain and 
the reason that this becomes so difficult about these issues of 
culpability, is because we are naturally very rettributive, we say, okay, 


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if you did this thing, then you deserve the punishment. But who's the 
'you'? If things change in your brain, and it wasn't your choice, does it 
still make sense to punish you in the same way? So what I argue for 
in the book is a forward-looking legal system which is to say, instead 
of imagining that all brains are created equal, have equal capacity for 
decision making and so on, and therefore, it's okay to punish 
everybody equally instead of forward-looking legal system that takes a 
very different approach and says look, what do we do with the person 
from here, it there anything that we can do to help? And if not, how 
can we modulate sentencing based on future dangerousness? So in 
other words, you do risk assessments on people. Some people's 
brains are not created equal, some people are very dangerous and 
need to be taken off the streets for a long time. At the other end of 
the spectrum, some people are not very dangerous and they ended up 
in some situation that is very unlikely to repeat. And so a tailored 
customized legal system will be one in which we treat people as 
individuals, we try to understand what is going on with their brains, if 
there is anything to do to help them, and if there's not, we sentence 
them appropriately instead of imagining that there is sort of a one size 
fits all solution in terms of incarceration, of prison terms. This is not 
only more humane and neuro-compatible, but it's also most cost- 
effective. 

Dr. Dave: Well, this fits in with one of the themes of the book which is 
essentially, that we're not driving the bus, in other words, the thing 
that we identify with the 'I' when I say me and you talk about things 
like rabies, and narcotics, and genes, and brain injuries, which you just 
talked about, and toxins and diseases. I particularly liked the rabies 
example. Maybe you could quickly touch on that. 

Eagleman: Yeah, rabies is also one of my favorite examples which 

is ah, essentially you get bitten and the rabies virus works its way up 
your nerves, up into your central nervous system, up to your brain. 

And once it's there, it goes to a couple of different places, it goes to 

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your areas of your temporal lobe one of the lobes of your brain. And it 
also goes to your salivary glands. And what it does in your temporal 
lobe is that it essentially controls your behavior and makes you more 
aggressive and more prone to bite somebody. And its positioned itself 
in your salivary glands that when you bite somebody, it passes itself 
on. I mean this is crazy but this is how rabies gets into wild animals 
and passes itself to the next wild animal. And the reason its so 
remarkable is because what's it is doing is this very tiny little thing is 
controlling a creature billion of times larger than it. It's like its 
stepping into the cockpit and driving this creature around. I just have 
always found it an amazing thing. That's in the point of view of the 
rabies. We get to see how it jumps in the cockpit and passes itself on 
that way. From the point of view of us, what it makes is very obvious 
and clear, is that we are able to be controlled. We got out all these 
lock and key mechanisms in our brains and all it takes is something 
getting in there and then we become a very different kind of person. 
We become aggressive . . 

Dr. Dave: Yes, its amazing. It's like the Transformers or Iron Man. 
Somebody gets inside there and controls very large person. 

Eagleman: Exactly. 

Dr. Dave: Well, I know you're short on time. You've just come off a 
thirty-day book tour and I know you got a lot that you are trying to 
catch up on. I would really love to talk to you at greater length. As 
we wind down here, is there anything you'd like to add? 

Eagleman: Umm, well, I mean, I'd, just to finish off the neuro law 

thing. I think that this is one of the real directions that neuroscience is 
going is in navigating our social policy. I think that neuroscience is at 
a point where it can really, in a meaningful way, step out of the 
laboratory and change the way that we run our society. And there's 
no reason that social policy should not be run as rigorously as we do 


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Transcribed from Shrinkrapradio.com 


scientific experiments were we base it on data, and every once in 
awhile somebody will say to me, gosh, don't you think that sounds 
creepy to bring science into let's say sentencing decisions? And the 
important question though is: compared to what? 

Dr. Dave: Yes, 

Eagleman: And the way it stands now, ugly people get much 

longer sentences than pretty people because there is all this extra- 
legal influences that go on. So if we brought data to the table, and 
saw who is actually the ones who go off and commit more crime, and 
understanding the biological basis of behavior, and understanding 
what can go wrong with people's brains and so on, and how we might 
help them, that seems to be a much more enlightened way to run our 
legal system. 

Dr. Dave: Well, that certainly makes sense to me. I support it 
strongly. Dr. David Eagleman, I want to thank you for being my guest 
today on Shrink Rap Radio. 

Eagleman: Thank you so much for having me. 


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